A certain self-styled Protestant whom I’ll call “Deleter” thinks it’s OK to make false claims against the Catholic Church and Catholicism while at the same time insists upon no rebuttal from me by deleting my comments.
Audiafox posts:
I’ve already shown that St.Matt. 16 is only one of the many Scriptural texts which are proof that the CC is Christ’s Church. If one wants God’s way rather than his own, Christ’s Church may be found.
Christ left the adoption of a name for His Church to those whom He commissioned to teach all nations. According to St. Matt. 16:18-19, Christ called the spiritual society He established, “My Church and ”the Church” in 18:17. It was known as “the Church” in contradistinction to the Synagogue, until it became universal in extent, until early sects infected with Judaistic and Gnostic errors made a distinguishing name necessary.
The first use of the name “Catholic” was by Saint Ignatius (50-107) who was the Bishop of Antioch appointed by St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome. St. Augustine, one of the early Church Fathers, uses it 240 times in his writings.
Yes, the church is a body...NOT A DENOMINATION! I agree that it's a spiritual organism but you say one thing and believe another. By saying it's a physical denomination (RCC) you are contradicting yourself. The church is believers. That's it. It's not a physical entity. It's a spiritual one.
You keep ignoring my comments about the mass abuses at the hands of the RCC. Would Christ's body be part of that perversion? Does that sound like Christ?
of course it can. You're caught up in the war of denominations. Christ wasn't. Paul wasn't. Why are you? God said he was NO respector of persons. He's not coming JUST for the Catholics Lula. How absurd. Test the spirits. Does that sound like Christ?
mode of worship? What is that? Worship is individual. My way of worship is personal. Yours is too. We are not to worship any certain type of way. Worship is worship. Pray. Live. Listen. Some pray with their hands in the air. Some don't. Some put their faces to the ground. Some don't. Some get down on their knees; some stand with their faces turned up. There is no certain mode of worship Lula. You're so involved in a system that is telling you to do certain things at certain times. It's wrong. We have liberty in Christ. He set us free from all that religious dogma.
Test the spirits woman and open your eyes.
"My kingdom is NOT part of this world." Jesus
Catholic means "universal." It's not about denomination.
That's what I keep saying. Christians from all walks and denominations (universally) will be saved. It's God's work, not ours.
KFC posts: The RCC CANNOT prove that Peter founded their church. Neither can they link their church back to Peter. What they did was go back and reach for Peter taking that scripture from Matthew and saying ta-da! That's us!
KFC,
The testimony is positive. Every reason in sense, Scripture and history sustains belief that Christ did what He said He would--- He actually did institute a Church. Christ the invisible Head selected Peter as the visible head of His Church. ”You are Peter and upon this rock” . The Good Shepherd selected Peter to feed His lambs and to feed His sheep. Peter was Christ’s selected keeper of the keys of His Church (the kingdom of God) and these same keys are in the keeping of Pope Benedict XVI the 265th occupant of the Chair of Peter who is Christ’s ecclesiastical authority in the one Christ-made Church.
St.Ambrose wrote, “Where Peter is there is the Church”.
Christ conferred His authority and leadership to St. Peter. This authority is what maintains unity in the Church, as all joined to Peter are part of Christ’s Church. Peter’s authority maintains stability in the one Faith as there is and never can be change in Christ’s teaching and doctrines. The Church under St. Peter’s authority promotes growth as on the first Pentecost Day, the one Christian Faith is carried from Jerusalem to the uttermost parts of the world. Since Christ’s commission to St. Peter as head of His Church passes on to his successors, the teaching and carrying on of the Faith is continuing through today and will continue until the end of time.
Now, more specifically to your charge that we cannot link the CC back to St. Peter….
Well, again history proves we can. Of all the bishops in the world today, one only claims the title to the Primacy of St. Peter and everybody knows this Bishop as Pope Benedict XVI. Now, from the time of St.Peter there has been a continuous succession and history records who they were. We can trace not only the name but a short history of all 265 Bishops of Rome….from the present Bishop of Rome, Pope Benedict XVI, back to the first Pius, who was elected in the year 142. And from the first Pius back through the nine successors of St. Peter.
For example,
First century---four Popes.
1---St. Peter of Bethsaida in Galilee, prince of the Apostles who received in the year 33Ad from Jesus Christ the pontifical power to be transmitted to his successors; resided first in Antioch, then in Rome where he was martyred—reigned in 33-67 AD----reigned after the Ascension of Christ.
2. St.Linus 67-76 AD—born in Volaterra, Italy is mentioned by St.Paul in the second letter to Timothy. Martryed for the Faith.
3. St.Cletus 76-88 AD---Rome, Martyr; buried near St.Peter.
4. St.Clement I 88-97 AD. Rome, Martyr…He is mentioned by St.Paul in Phil. 1:4. He has left us an epistle to the Corinthians in which he assumes the primacy of jurisdiction.
The list of the Popes of the first and second centuries has been left to us by St.Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, who wrote about the year 200.
In the 2nd century there were 10 Popes…..
The 3rd…15 Popes….the 4th…10 Popes…the 5th…12 Popes…the 6th…13 Popes…the 7th…20 Popes….the 8th…12 Popes..in the 9th…20 Popes….in the 10th…24 Popes…. I could go on with the list through today.
KFC posts:
Yes, Christ is the Rock, however, that's not what 16:18 means.
Christ is clearly declaring something to St.Peter and it's not about Himself. Even grammatically, "this" followed by "rock" denotes the connection between Peter and rock. Kepha (Peter) means rock. "Upon this rock" refers back to Peter.
Christ built His Church upon the rock of St.Peter meaning the house of God would have a firm, rock-solid foundation (as opposed to a house made of sand).
Leauki posts
LEAUKI,
See my post 19....only the Catholic Church has an indisputable history of unbroken Apostolic Succession from Pope Benedict going back to St.Peter. Not one of the dissident, schismatical, heretical groups, sects or denominations that came into existence after 33AD are branches of the CC. The CC was established by Christ, a Divine Person and they were all established by a human person(s).
It is not St.Peter, but rather Henry VIII who established the Church of England otherwise known as the Anglican Church, the first Protestant Church of England. The Anglican Church ministers don't have the power to bind and loose nor are their ministers qualified to celebrate Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, forgive sins. It is unScriptural and unhistoric to claim to be Catholic while affiliated with another church that has not valid priests as there is only one line of Apostolic Succession from St.Peter.
On an interesting side note.....Some Anglicans are coming home to the CC.
First Group of "Traditionalist" Anglicans in Britain Votes to Enter Catholic Church http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/nov/09110608.html
Traditional Anglican Communion "On the Same Page" as Vatican on Life and Family: Canadian TAC Head http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/oct/09102207.html
Anglicans to be Brought Back to "Full Visible Unity" with Catholic Church: Surprise Vatican Announcement http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/oct/09102001.html
See my post 19....only the Catholic Church has an indisputable history of unbroken Apostolic Succession from Pope Benedict going back to St.Peter.
That's not true.
There have been several claimants to the title, not just the bishop of Rome.
Not one of the dissident, schismatical, heretical groups, sects or denominations that came into existence after 33AD are branches of the CC.
Still a claim, not an argument.
It is not St.Peter, but rather Henry VIII who established the Church of England otherwise known as the Anglican Church, the first Protestant Church of England.
Henry VIII established the church in practical terms. But spiritually it claims to have been founded by St. Peter, just like that other branch, the Catholic Church.
St. Matt. 16:18-19: "And I say to thee: that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
kfc #8
In your "garage sales" blog, you may recall in discussing St.Matt. 16:18-19, "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it", I made the point that the Catholic Church can not ever fail. To which Leauki brought up the clerical sex abuse scandal in Germany and Ireland.
Referring to the scandal, you ask "Would Christ's body be part of that perversion? Does that sound like Christ?"
I'll respond to you as I did to Leauki. Yes, the human side of the Mystical Body of Christ is made up of sinners. Catholics condemn the bad conduct of anyone of her members, priests included, stronger than non-Catholics do.
Catholics have Our Lord's promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. But we have no such promise where segments of the human element of the Church is concerned. Those involved in the sex abuse scandal succumbed to those gates. Our Lord warned us that scandals would come and woe to those who caused scandal to the children of God.
The sin is being exposed, Our Lord's way of purifying His Church.
At the same time, there are thousands of holy priests who have retained the Faith. And that's what this battle through this valley of tears (our life journey) is all about...persevering in the one Faith.
Catholics condemn the bad conduct of anyone of her members, priests included, stronger than non-Catholics do.
Really?
I haven't seen any evidence for that. The Pope's reaction was extremely mild and was a lot less than what people demanded and even expected.
And wasn't there a better solution available, like, for example, not even committing those crimes? The other (heretical, according to you) churches seem to have figured it out how to do that.
lula posts
leauki posts:
It is true, indisputably true. History itself proves the Apostolic Succession of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church--that there has been an unbroken chain of Popes, from St.Peter to Pope Benedict XVI, to whom the keys of the kingdom and the authority to bind and loose and forgive sins were given. Only the CC has the priesthood according to the order of Melchisedech fulfills the prophecy of Malachais 1:11.
So what? Big deal...there have been other claimants....they are false claims. There is only one truth.
Almighty God is not a God of confusion. At any given time throughout the ages of salvation history, there has only been one God-revealed Church in existence.
It is true, indisputably true.
Well, see it disputed here.
History itself proves the Apostolic Succession of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church--that there has been an unbroken chain of Popes, from St.Peter to Pope Benedict XVI, to whom the keys of the kingdom and the authority to bind and loose and forgive sins were given. Only the CC has the priesthood according to the order of Melchisedech fulfills the prophecy of Malachais 1:11.
Where is the proof?
Then prove it.
Prove that and prove that this one church is yours.
see it's all about the institution...NOT CHRIST. The only one who can claim the priesthood of Melchizedek is CHRIST. He and He alone. This is actually blasphemy. You'll have to take that up with God. You're replacing Christ with the RCC.
What do you do with Chap 1 of Revelation which says:
"And when I saw Him I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me saying to me. "Do not be afraid, I am the First and the Last. I am HE who lives and was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and Death." v17-18
If Christ is telling the Apostle John in the 1st century HE is holding the keys, how can the RCC today be holding them? Hmmmm?
there is none. It's call RCC tradition. You can't prove tradition. Somebody makes it up and then the others start following it. The Pharisees did it and then the RCC did it.
she can't. She can make claims, but there is NO proof.
One more time....
We begin with Scripture from which we learn that Our Lord Jesus Christ constituted the Apostolic College. Of that College, He gave St.Peter the primacy.
Now History comes in.....History itself affirms that this primacy by Divine constitution successively attached to the sees which St.Peter founded, first at Jerusalem, then at Antioch, finally in Rome.
History itself affirms the unbroken chain of the Primacy from the first.. St.Peter to the present Pope Benedict XVI.
The proof is also in the Catholic priesthood. Christ the Eternal High Priest according to the order of Melchisedech, conferred the priesthood to St.Peter and the other Apostles. The Book of Acts describes how they in turn ordained other good men as bishops, priests and deacons in the Infant Church. It describes how the Chruch developed. When St.Peter died, St.Linus succeeded him and the Chruch developed under him..when St.Linus died, St.Cletus succeeded him and the Chruch developed under him and when St.Cletus died, St.Clement succeeded him and the Chruch developed...and so forth and so on....and when Pope John Paul II died, Pope Benedict XVI succeeded him and the Chruch develops and that's the way it will go until the end of the world.
Back to Scripture....Before Christ ascended into Heaven where He reigns over His kingdom, He promised He would not leave us orphans. He made good His promise by establishing a Church, an organic, spiritual society, upon the Apostolic foundation of St.Peter and the Apostles to further His mission, the salvation of souls. That Chruch was commissioned by Christ to preach, teach, baptize and judge matters of faith and morals and to administer the CHrist instituted 7 Sacraments and offer Sacrifice.
Christ called it "My Chruch" not My sects, not My churches and not My believers in all denominations. It was one Church not thousands of doctrinally conflicting sects. That Church Christ called, "My Church" must exist today becasue Christ said He would remain with it until the end of the world and that the gates of Hell would never succeed in prevailing against it.
Now, understanding this, like it or not, believe it or not, we come face to face with indisputable historic facts. Let's trace back the origin of the principle churches and we'll find that none of them are Christ established. The Chruch that dates back to the First Pentecost Day is the one, and the only one properly to designate itself as Christ-established.
Is the Mother Church of Protestantism the LUtheran Chruch the Chruch CHrist established? Did Christ say to Martin Luther, King Henry VIII or Queen Elizabeth (Church of England), Calvin and John Knox (Presbyterian), Robert Brown (Congregationalist), John Smyth (Baptist), John and Charles Wesley (Methodist), John Nelson Darby (Plymouth Brethren) John Murray (Universalist), Joseph SMith (Mormon), William Miller (Adventists) or Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Scientist) "thou art the rock upon which I will build My Church"? Did Christ promise to remain with any one of these "until the end of the world"?
The correct answer to all is no. then where is the Chruch today that was born on the first Pentecost Day? Is it the Catholic Chruch? If you answer no, then you say to Our Lord, "You are not the truth you claimed to be for the gates of hell which you promised would not prevail did prevail against the Chruch you established."
Go back 500 hundred years or so in the history of Christianity and you'll find there was none of these churches listed above. There was but one Christian Church in the world which went by the name of Catholic.
Go back 500 years more, and we pass beyond the Greek and Latin Schism and find one, undivided unbroken Christendom which had lasted from the days of Christ for a 1,000 years.
The Catholic Church here since 33AD is a historical phenomenon.
Back to Scripture....
No. That doesn't work.
I want you to prove that of all the branches of the original church it is today's Catholic Church that constitutes the true continuation.
"Scripture" ends A LONG TIME before all those schisms.
You still regard as given the very thing I want you to prove. You claim that "Christ" didn't found the Lutheran Church (or, presumably, the Oriental Orthodox Church). But then he didn't found the Catholic Church either. He founded a church that later branched into the Catholic Church and all those other churches.
Your mere belief that of all those branches the Catholic Church is a continuation whereas all the others are not does NOT in any way prove that and NO, you cannot use that belief of your as a given fact.
only because the RCC took over and squelched any sign of any belief other than their own. In effect they kidnapped Christianity by their sheer power and arrogance. Before the RCC took over the bible was written in hundreds of languages but after Rome stepped into take over all these translations were burned or done away with and Latin was the only allowable translation after Jerome went to work on it.
Many many lost their lives including whole groups of people who dared question the RCC or who dared attempt (some succeeded) to get their hands on the scriptures and transcribe into the people's language. The reformation really started way before Luther and Calvin. Even Luther was kidnapped by friends for his own safety. Why? Because the RCC would have killed him like they did all the rest before him. No one dared go against such a powerful institution.
Look at Revelation and you'll see 7 churches mentioned. Not one was called the Roman Catholic Church.
lula posts:
Leauki posts:
Leauki, you are wrong. Scripture works. Scripture is God telling us something about His New Covenant Church which is and can only be the Catholic Church.
[quote]St. Matt. 16:18-19: "And I say to thee: that thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."[/quote]
And in 18:18, Christ gives the same power and authority to the other Apostles "Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose on upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven."
28: 18-20, And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
From these texts, what is God teaching us? Well, we learn quite a lot......that Christ built His Church with St.Peter and the other Apostles as its Apostolic foundation.......That they formed an exclusive group with which Christ promised to remain until the end of the world........That Christ gave St.Peter the keys to the kingdom making him first earthly head of His Church.....that Christ also gave them the power and authority to bind and loose; that is power and authority to rule (pronounce judgements and make disiciplinary decisions), to teach and sanctify (dispense the sacraments) in the Church.
St.Paul describes the Church built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets as the household of God growing into a holy temple.
Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the household of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.
As to the duration of the Church which Scripture says will be until the end of the world, Christ knew that the Apostles would die, yet He promised St.Peter and the other bishops that He would remain with His Church until the end of the world. This implies that they would continue to rule (administer), to teach and to sanctify the Church. The only possible way for them to do that is through legitimate successors. How? By filling vacancies and by expanding the number of successors to accomodate the growing numbers of new Christians.
Moreover, Christ willed that all should be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth. He commanded the Chruch to teach Christianity..the one, true Christian Faith to all nations until the end of the world and to "preach the Gospel to every creature." St.Mark 16:15. This would obviously have been impossible if the Apostles had not "ordained to them priests in every church...." Acts. 14:22-23. Scripture is clear (it works, Leauki) that these newly ordained presbyters derived their authority from the Apostles Rom. 10:15 who had received their authority directly from Christ.
PRIESTHOOD: Scripture tells us that Christ established a ministerial priesthood which belongs only to those who are properly chosen and ordained. St.Mark 1:17 and St.John 15:16. They were ordained by a special rite and given special offices. To them ALONE was given the power of consecrating the Body and Blood of Christ: This is My Body....This is My Blood...."Do this for a commemoration of Me." St. Luke 22:19. These words made them priests becasue they gave the power to offer sacrifice to God. Later, they received the power to forgive sins.
The priesthood of the New Covenant had to be perpetual becasue the Sacrifice was to be perpetual. Malachais 1:11. So, the Apostles ordained other men by a rite named, "the imposition of hands", what is called the Sacrament of Holy Orders today.
Acts 6:6 describes the choosing of 7 deacons by the disciples of Christ. These 7 men "were set before the Apostles and they praying, imposed hands upon them."
Acts. 13:2-3 informs us that before they went on their missionary journeys, St. Barnabus and St.Paul were ordained as priests. It's right there Leauki, "And as they were ministering to the Lord, and fasting, the Holy Ghost said to them: Separate me Saul and Barnabas, for the work whereunto I have taken them. Then they, fasting and praying, and imposing their hands upon them, sent them away."
Following that, 14:22, "And when they had ordained to them priests in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the LOrd, in whom they believed."
To St.Timothy, St.Paul wrote, "Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of hands of the priesthood." 1Tim. 4:14.
Scripture works Leauki.... through the imposition of hands the clergy were distinguished from the rest of the faithful. To them alone belong the office of ruling or governing the Chruch, of dispensing the Sacraments and of offering the Holy Sacrifice. It's all there in Scripture...Yes sir, Leauki, read Scripture and you will discover the Catholic Church.
To St.Peter, Christ said, "Feed My lambs...Feed My sheep."
"Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops to rule the Church of God, which He hath purchased with His own Blood." St.Paul speaking to the meeting of the bishops at Ephesus. Acts. 20:28.
"Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God." 1Cor. 4:1. The "mysteries" here are the Sacraments.
"For every high priest taken among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins." Hebrews 5:1.
Jesus' founding of the Church was completed with the sending of the Holy Spirit at the first Pentecost Day. This is when the actual birth of the Church took place. Since that day forward, the Church would function and show herself to be a Divine-human reality which St.Paul describes is the Mystical Body of Christ.
Plain fact...go back through history looking for the Church personally established by Christ as per the Scriptures and you'll find that only the Catholic Church endures as the one that was born on Pentecost Day.
Plain fact...Scripture identifies Christ's Church as possessing 4 marks or credentials...
1---miraculous unity in one faith, one doctrine, one baptism;
2--- universality .... her locations are all around the world; her doctrines are meant for the wealthy as well as the poor...for the educated as to the uneducated....all these from the beginning have professed the same Creed, have been sanctified by the same 7 Sacraments, and have been bound by exactly the same laws.
3---holiness, by Christ's grace just as He is holy. It doesn't mean each member is holy as He said there would be good and bad in His Chruch, St.John 6:70, and not all members would go to heaven St.Matt. 7:21-23. The CC is holy becasue she is the guardian of special means of grace Christ established, the sacraments Eph. 5:26.
4---Apostolic, from Christ to the Apostles to their legitimate successors by Holy Orders, "the imposition of hands."
No other church, sect or denomination can be Christ's Chruch as per Scripture unless it possesses those four marks....the CC alone possesses them. The CC is in addition the only one claiming direct and immediate foundation by Christ in its present developed form.