That's fine with me.

I just need to know that Jerusalem will be restored after he has come. I don't care which parts have been rebuild by him specifically or by others.

I still believe that he will rebuild the Temple though.

LULA POSTS:

LEAUKI POSTS:

Jesus did "rebuild" the Temple already. As to "Temple" there are different Scriptural meanings and uses of the word "Temple" and perhaps it would be beneficial to discuss those. Failing to understand the Holy Scriptures adequately, you and others who come to certain passages with a preset agenda, think only of the rebuilding of a physical, material Temple.   

Yes, I'm telling you that Jesus won't rebuild the Temple that is, a physical, material  temple in Jerusalem.

Life is a gift from God. It's a probation time...a testing time...a time of making choices....a race to the end which is eternal life either in eternal happiness or eternal misery.  It's about a spritual battle for the eternal soul between good and the forces of evil. The people of the world, including Jews, will be saved by the merits and preaching and acceptance of Christ's Cross and not by human works in vain such as is resacrifcing animals in a rebuilt Jerusalem temple. 

Yes, of course.

leauki posts 103

In salvation history, there has been only one true Messias, the Christ. All the OT prophets pointed to the Emmanuel who would be born in the time, place and circumstances exactly as Jesus Christ was.

No, Jesus didn't rebuilt the Temple already.

And there is no other "meaning" of "Temple". A temple is a temple is a temple.

Who made you the final arbiter on what scripture means?

In that case the matter is settled. Jesus isn't the Messiah.

We expect the Messiah to rebuild Jerusalem (and all the other cities of Israel) and the Temple is part of that. If Jesus won't do it, he is not the Messiah.

"Salvation history" sounds to me like a term that makes something much more complex than it is.

Jewish Messianism is not as complex as you make it out to be.

1. There is a people, Israel.

2. They, like other peoples, believe in a god.

3. The god of Israel turns out to be the Creator and, according to later belief, the only real god.

4. Legend has it that when Israel is in trouble, Israel's god will send an annointed king to put things right.

5. This has already once happened.

6. Legend further has it that at the end of time such a Messiah (annointed one) will arrive again, rebuild the cities of Israel and put things right for all the time.

7. That's the one we are waiting for.

If you tell me that Jesus won't rebuild the cities of Israel (or important parts of them), then Jesus is not that Messiah.

I'll continue to wait.

(And I am sure you will continue to give me reason after reason why Jesus isn't the Messiah.)

The time and circumstances where not mentioned. And neither was Jesus' name ever "Emmanuel".

(Actually a time was expected. The Messiah was to come at the end of time. This is why early Christians believed that the end of time was near.)

So far you have totally convinced me that Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

Before you started "teaching" me, I was merely convinced that Jesus isn't the Messiah.

You have to remember where she's coming from Leauki.  She's coming from that darn RCC theology which says that the RCC has REPLACED Israel.  It's called "Replacement Theology"   The Jews, in their eyes, killed Christ (not true) and if you notice she didn't use scripture to prove her point.  It's all coming from her "tradition" not the scriptures. 

Paul, when he was writing to the Thessalonians, mentioned the rebuilt temple, maybe not knowing himself at the time that it would be a rebuilt one, but now we know from reading what he said that it HAS TO BE constructed.  He said this concerning this future time:

"Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come (rapture or gathering of his people to him) except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed (AC); the son of perdition.  Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God sits in the TEMPLE of God showing himself that he is God."

 This has NOT happened yet.  Paul wrote this about 51 A.D. BEFORE the 2nd Temple was destroyed.  He had NO idea when this would happen but he wrote that it would. For all he knew it could be anyday now when he was writing this.   Now we know today there is NO time in history from 51-70 A.D. where this happened.  Paul was killed in about 67 A.D.

Daniel also foretold this as did Christ in Matthew 24:15.  Daniel was so upset at seeing this future vision that it says he was greatly troubled.  So we are still waiting.  And since there is no temple now, there has to be sometime before this prophecy can take place.  Otherwise it makes no sense. 

 The Messiah will come AFTER the AC sits in the temple declaring himself God, and that's when the Jews will recognize Him... 

"and I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplications and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son and shall be in bitterness for him as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.  In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon."  Zech 12:10

This is that Day of Atonement I was speaking of earlier.  It's the day that the Jews will recognize Christ really was their Messiah afterall.  They will be on their faces like they have never before. 

His feet will touch the mount of Olives when He comes back. (Zech 14:4)

It will be TOTALLY restored AFTER he comes.  First it will be destroyed by the nations that will come up against it.  Same story as always just different battle.  This one will be the battle of Armageddon.  Then afterwards:

"and he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.  Having the glory of God and her light was like unot a stone most precious even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; and had a wall great and high and had twelve gates and at the gates twelve angels and names written theron which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel; On the east three gates; on the north three gates on the south three gates and on the west three gates.  And the wall of the city had twelve foundations and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.  And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.  And the city lieth foursquare and the length is as large as the breadth and he measured the city with the reed twelve thousand furlongs.  The length and the breadth and the height are equal. "  Revelation 21

This is just a partial description of the New Jerusalem which God will rebuild. What God has in store is better than the Jerusalem we see today.  This is only a shadow of the genuine article that God has ready for us when the time comes.  It will be huge.  For more you can read the rest on your own. 

Leauki...one more thing I thought of today after you gave me Ezekiel 16:53.  If you read on to v60  you would read this..

"Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant." 

I'm especially looking at the "days of thy youth."  I think this means when Israel, is a young nation, which is why many of us believe we are are looking at being very near end times now.  Israel coming into her nation in 1948 makes for a very young nation among nations today.  Many believe that this will be the generation when the Messiah does come back.  That's why years ago the JW's and others were looking at 1988 (40 years) with quite a bit of interest.  Of course that came and went. While a generation can be 40 years (as like the time in the wilderness)  it can also mean 70 years (like the captivity) so only time will tell. 

Leaukiposts 116

KFC posts: 119

 So this is Marv's teaching on what Ezekiel 16:55 means.

The word "prophet" comes from the Greek pro-phetes which means "to speak on behalf of someone." It has nothing to do with predicting the future, an activity in Greek as mantis. The Hebrew word for pro-phetes is nabi and its reference is religious. "Nabi" came to mean "one chosen by God to speak in His name." So Gods's prophet is the one speaking  in the name of God or being His spokesman , right?   

Marv's teaching doesn't make sense when you consider who the Prophets were and their purpose. God's knew what He  was doing with His prophets....Being His spokesmen, they wouldn't "have totally missed" anything.

And your summation which is highlighted is pure conjecture. In the time of the Antichrist, hatred and persecution will be at an all time high against all those who believe and stand up for Christ.     

KFC POSTS 119

Like most of Scripture, to understand verse 55, we must go to the beginning of the chapter. And we learn that Ezechiel is announcing the sentence passed on Israel and Judah on account of the transgressions and sins piling up. He does this by imagining a formal trial (rib) in which the charges are described by a series of allegories.

Verses 1-43 is the story of the unfaithful and evil wife who stands for Israel.

Hosea 1-3 first uses the metaphor of the wanton wife to charge Israel with her infidelity. Jeremias 2:2 uses the imagery of marriage to describe the covenant and how Israel came to break it. Ezechiel develops this metaphor the most. The wife is Jerusalem depicted with negative features from her birth onwards. v. 1-5 and then completely transformed into the most beautiful of princesses v. 6-14. However, she's proved unfaithful and committed adultery with the empires of Egypt, Assyria and Babylon. v. 15-34.

This metaphor makes the point that Jerusalem is a city that had a history of sin and infidelty to God and His laws. Verses 38 the sentence must be passed. I will judge you as women who break wedlock. ...she will bece the prey of nations that she adulated. Vs. 35-41.  

Verse 44 begins Ezechial's allegory of members of a family.....Jerusalem and her sisters, Samora and Sodom. He's drawing a comparison between Jerusalem's conduct and that of Samara (Israel) and Sodom, who are depicted as 3 sisters. Samara was invaded by Assyria in punishment for her idolatry and long before that, Sodomwas engulfed by fire becasue of her perverse conduct. But Jerusalem has behaved far worse than her sisters v. 47-48. and therefore must pay the price for her sins. v. 43, 58.

Ezechiel uses these allegories to make the point that Jerusalem's sins are particularly grevious becasue they are committed by the most beloved city of the Lord God.

they wrote what they saw Lula.  They didn't always understand. 

Daniel wrote this:

"And I heard but I understood not then said I, O my Lord what shall be the end of these things? And he said Go thy way Daniel for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."   Daniel 12:8-9

Even Daniel, who wrote them down DID NOT understand these prophesies.  God knew, but they didn't always.   It wasn't for them to understand totally.  It was for them to be obedient and write down what they were inspired to.   Even in the NT we see this.  The Apostles and writers didn't totally understand all things.  Only what God had revealed to them at the time.  They all thought that Christ would return in their day but He did not.  They wrote about it as though he could come back anytime and for us to be ready. 

no.  You took things out of context.  I quoted Marv ONLY when I said what he said about the mountain tops.  You took it much further. 

Aye..yi..yi!  "The Messiah will come" is a bunch of nonsense. Why don't you talk in terms of Scriptually what IS......THE MESSIAS HAS COME.

The Messias who has come is the Christ. The Messias came to redeem the world and He did.

Scriptute is crystal clear that when CHRIST comes again, it  MOST ASSUREDLY WON'T BE AS THE MESSIAS.

Scripture is crystal clear that when Christ comes again, it will be as the Judge of all mankind at the end of the world.  

There is no such thing in Scripture as the Messias coming back to set up His rule. This is pure Rapturist/Christian Zionist/Millennialist  endtime conjecture on your part.

Scripture is clear that Christ will come again to Judge the living and the dead at the end of the world. That's it...after that all souls are off to spending eternity either in Heaven or Hell.  The four last things are Death, Judgment, Heaven or Hell.

[quote]KFC POSTS 119 

So yes, the ultimate restoration of Sodom, Samaria, and Israel awaits the establishing of Christ's kingdom on the present earth.[/quote]

Christ has already established His Messianic Kingdom. Scriputre gives the details that Christ accomplished establishing His Kingdomduring His ministry on earth.  His kingdomis His Church.  The parable of the mustard seed describes His Kingdom, His Church, the New Jerusalem.

But if Jesus was the Messiah, he has to come back.

Otherwise he cannot fullfill his task.

Not all Israelites have returned to Israel. The world is not at peace.

If he doesn't come back to finish the job, he cannot be the Messiah.

That's an interesting point!

I just don't like the terms you use. The state of Israel is a _country_ not a _nation_. The people of Israel (i.e. Jews, Samaritans, Ethiopian Jews etc.) are a nation.

These two terms became confused when the United _Nations_ decided to become a United Regimes. Originally the United Nations were about nations (hence the independence of Israel based on Jewish nationality). But this has been lost.

The (current) state of Israel is very young. And maybe what you say is true.

Looking forward to it!

NOT even close Lula.  He redeemed us but He will return to establish it.  Does it look like He has established it to you?  Look around.  I don't think so. 

Then why is there a New Jerusalem coming down from heaven at the very end?  Why does Revelation say that God is going to bring in a new earth?  Why do we need a new earth?  Isaiah has many prophecies where it says what the earth will be like at that time.."the lion will lay down with the lamb" "all the nations of the earth will go up the new Jerusalem"  etc.  Why do we have such descriptions then?  Why are we told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem when we know that the only way that's going to happen is when the Prince of Peace comes back? 

You may want to do some HW.  Go and read, for instance Ezek 37 where you'll see the Promises of Israel that will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ which will include restoration to the land of Palestine, v21, unification of the two kingdoms, v22, purification from all idolatry, v23, Messiah's ruling over them v24, possession of the land forever, v25 and the presence of God and His sanctuary in their midst, v26-28. 

Just before he ascended he assured the disciples that he would be back.  After he left, the angels present told them as they gazed up into the heavens that Jesus would descend just the way he ascended the next time he came back.  There is NO question that He will be back.  This time when He does His feet will actually touch the Mount of Olives sending a split along it to form a valley. 

When I use the term "nation of Israel" I'm speaking about God's covenant people and the land which is what I think you're saying as well.  I would use that term before 1948 and today. In the wilderness I would call them a nation with no home before they went into the land flowing with milk and honey.   The people and the land are always linked in scripture.  Quite often you read in scripture "thy people and thy holy city" which means Jerusalem.  They are always linked but they were always called a nation before and after entering their homeland.  So when I say Nation I am referring to the people in their land. 

But maybe you have a point..maybe I mean to say "in the days of their youth" meaning when Israel is a young country as we know it today.  Israel as a Nation is as old as the hills but as for their country they are very very young as far as countries go. 

They are called a Nation in the OT many times.  Moses wrote:

"and you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a Holy nation..."  Ex 19:6

"I will smite them with the pestilence and disinherit them and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they."  Numbers 14:12

"Let me alone that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they."  Deut 9:14

KFC posts 125

KFC,

Big sigh!  Here you go again. You're misinterpreting 2Thess. 2:3-4 in the interest of promoting those foolish Rapturist / Millennialist beliefs and predictions. You are really getting carried away, putting a lot of effort into making specific predictions working out when the Second Coming will take place and that's not what Christians are supposed to do.

What was going on with the Thessalonians that St.Paul was addressing in his letter to them? You quoted only verses 3 and 4, when verses 1 And 2 as well as the rest of this section are necessary for understanding St. Paul's teaching.

Above, note the highlighted: "for that day shall not come". There is no "for that day shall not come" in the Douay Rheims version. 2 Thess. 2:3-4 is "Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God."  

But putting that difference aside for a moment, we could rightly understand "that day" from reading verses 1 and 2. St.Paul writes,  "We beseech you , brethren, concerning the coming of Our Lord, Jesus Christ and of our gathering together unto Him:  that you be not easily shaken in mind nor be terrified neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as sent from us as if the day of the Lord were at hand."

The Thessalonians Christians had been hearing false predictions that "that day" was coming. That is, Christ's Second Coming was at any moment. And you quoted the two verses 3-4 in which St.Paul explains that Our Lord's Second Coming will not be until 2 things must happen first.

1----a great apostasy (that is, a substantial part of the world population will lose all knowledge and love of God) and 2----the the "man of sin" is revealed when he sits in the Temple of God, showing himself to be God.  

You write:

You're making false conclusions.   No, KFC. St.Paul never, ever mentioned or meant a "rebuilt" Temple as you say he does. 

The Greek word for "temple" in this verse is naos. Naos is used in the NT to designate other temples. What's more, St.Paul never once uses this word to designate the Jerusalem Temple. He used the more common NT word for temple, hieron. 1Cor. 9:13. Whenever St.Paul uses the word naos, he's referring to New Covenant temples. Check his writings...these "temples" include either the Church, or the individual Christian, both of which are New Covenant temples indwelt by the Holy Spirit. 1Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19; 2Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21.

This is why we know St.Paul is not writing about a future rebuilt Jerusalem Temple. When St.Paul's other teachings in Hebrews, Corinthians and Galatians are taken into consideration, it makes perfect sense that St.Paul understood the New Covenant Church as the new Temple. It's the New Covenant Church that's going to witness the "man of sin" revealed during the final confrontation between good and evil. In the Apocalypse this is referred to as the battle between God and Magog. And of this, in the last few verses in this section, St.Paul reassures and offers comfort to the Thessalonians and us....that Christ is the Victor in this confrontation.