Without theology eh? Ha,ha ha.

We understand our disordered nature through reason and our use of free will. Reason can detect man's disordered nature and through freedom of will, we commit evil actions (sins) or good actions.  Free will gives us the power of self chosen good actions, also carries with it the the risk of self chosen bad actions.

 

 

I didn't actually quote St. Thomas Aquinas, rather I just tried to express his thought. If I did not succeed the fault is all mine.  

I am familiar with St. Thomas' classic formulation in what are called "The Five Ways"....the argument from motion, from effecient cause, from possibility and necessity, from graduation to be found in things, and from governance of the world.

RogueCaptain - Word it any way you want to, this semantics thing is getting old.  I never set out to prove god didn’t exist, I tried to prove he does … and couldn’t. Now, if I was unable to prove his existence, how in the world am I supposed to prove he doesn’t? There is no other way for me to word it besides god doesn’t exist in my mind anyway. Now how this requires some kind of faith from me, well you got me there too. I do not know where your definitions come from but as I am a nonbeliever, I use things like my generic dictionary (nobody on JU appreciates it) and this is what it tells me-

Agnostic - somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists  
Atheist - somebody who does not believe in God or deities

Whatever it is you folks read and study (?) … your bible is yours guiding light and the dictionary is mine … it is that simple. It doesn’t tell me that I need any faith to disbelieve in gods existence, but it does tell me that I have to have it in order to believe. The way I see it, faith and god are synonymous … I would go so far as to say that as far as humans are concerned … faith had to come first. The only possible way a thinking and reasoning human being can believe in something (anything) they cannot understand, comprehend, prove or in any way be interface with ... can only be accomplished on faith (or stupidity). My dictionary tells me that faith is a belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof. I live in a logical world and I need proof to believe. And I have no more use for faith than I do for magic.

So you have studied … did you study me? First of all, I am not most people; I am Michelle, a person, unique to the earth and like no other … so you will not find ME in any of your research material. You have obviously been reading the wrong material because it is a simple question to answer as these were the first two that came up on my exhaustive google search. Atheism is not faith based so just put a check mark by my name in the column – she doesn’t want to play this game anymore.
 
Homosexuality and the Gay Gene
This is the Way God Made Me

If it makes you happy, then I agree … atheism is a faith based religion … I give up ok. Can we put a rest on this NOW please?

It would be nice if you could see fit to allow me the use my powers of reason and free will ... but for some reason, I am supposed to accept yours??? It seems that faith in God is not the only requirement for your idea of salvation ... I am supposed to also accept on faith, everything my religious betters say, think, write, feel or believe in themselves ... this is just too restrictive for me and doesn't permit (allow) the questioning of any of it. And this is what you see as enlightenment. Sounds like dogmatic indoctrination to me and has nothing to do with free will. It sounds just like our benign USG where opposition is immediately labeled and discounted as conspiracy nonsense … Seems as if we are not allowed to question their veracity either (and they do not need any faith). Intransigency and free will do not belong in the same document.

If proof is necessary, the responsibility falls on the shoulders of the believers … not the unbelievers??? You know I do not like to do religion … Brainwashing in my dictionary … to impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use of various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim's prior beliefs … sounds like anything besides free will ... but it does sound like religion.

 

BT posts:

I'm not sure I follow you here. How could anyone not allow you your power of reason and free will?

Free will implies a choice between motives. When 2 alternative courses of action lie before us, we can freely deliberate which to choose.

To believe or not believe in God in the choice before us. You choose Atheism.

That's becasue Christians believe that in sharing their faith they are giving a priceless gift. Think about it this way. If you found a cure for cancer, you'd communicate this far and wide so that people could be saved. You would be negligent not to do so right?

Well, Christians believe they have received something much more than the remedy for cancer; they believe thay have received an eternal truth which is we are created by God, for God. God loves us and sent Jesus Christ to be our Redeemer. Christ established His religion and a Church to guide us to salvation. We would be negligent not to pass on that truth. 

 First by religion, I mean the acknowledgment of the created to His Creator and all that acknowledgment involves as the worship of God that is His due, acceptance of the truths He has revealed, and obedience to the laws He has set forth.  This religion can only be Catholicism.

Look around at the world ....it's in turmoil...individuals, families, society, nations are all in turmoil. It's a sick world bent in destruction.  Why? I'd say because so much of humanity created by God and for Himself has disowned Him and gone over into materialism and irreligion. 

Fr. Dudley writes in his book, "A world without religion is a world without God and a world without God is a world without God's moral law and a world without God's moral law is a rudderless ship drifting helplessly toward the rocks and its doom.....".

Yet, when there is a catastrophe, they appeal to God and to religion. This is when they admit that only religion can reprieve the world from the catastrophe of materialism's making.

 

Okay we'll give it a rest.  Please understand the argument really wasn't about religious belief but about hypocrites and hypocritical thinking accepted as the dominant in our society.  I don't like that, it bothers me.  Especially having someone who really doesn't know try to convince someone else buy stating it in the form of pure fact 100% absolute certainty and getting away with it on a daily basis with the only argument that since the alternative has not been proven it must be true and will never be proven in the future because I am completely sure it is truth.

I think that's wrong and it should be well known through exposure. If you believe there is no higher power, intelligence, order but fail to prove it then explain rather than going around stating it like it is an unarguable fact.  It is just so arrogant to go around and make a possible false claim you can't prove concerning the greatest question of all that has not been physically proven and not mention that you are basing it on faith.  If we followed that line of thought we would not have any scientific progress. 

I really don't care what you personally believe in God beyond reasons of the salvation for your soul concerning the afterlife but only because the chances are it is in your best interests.

 

Edit:  Atheists really don't know any more than Theists and should admit it but they don't.

Personally, I have no Idea what a Theist (are they all the same?) believes or not, nor do I care … more power to them. What is it that I don’t know more of … their religion or life based on scientific principles? 

RogueCaptain – I agree wholeheartedly, your choice – my choice. I do not like to discuss religious matters and I do not do theology because … well it seems self-explanatory to me, go figure? "…the chances are it is in your best interests", humm … I do not gamble for a reason and the word chance is a big part of it.

I believe that materialism and irreligion was the norm for a long time before your guy came into the picture … and as far as I can see, nothing has changed much to date, go figure?
Come on Lula ... I know you are not talking about me here, right ... so who is the ‘they’ that always appeals to god and co. when catastrophes (?) strike?

Lula, god has to bless you … but you sure are persistent. You seem to be a paragon of theological wonderment and biblical knowledge ... I commend you on your faith and fortitude … but how much fortitude, can a mere mortal tolerate, I wonder. I am getting to enjoy our little patty-cake sessions even if I do not understand their purpose??? Have you ever convinced me of anything of substance … and vice versa, of course not? How could it be otherwise, humm? Common sense alone dictates that this condition is not going to change in the foreseeable future … so you got me here???

 

"They" would be the people, the converts after 9/11, in Haiti and Japan after the earthquake.

 

 

 

Me too.

 

My dictionary defines Theism as a system of those who admit the existence of the One God and at least the possibility of a Divine revelation; it is therefore distinct from Deism. The Theist admits a religion and a public cult, whereas the Deist to all intents and purposes admits no more than and acts like the Atheist. 

A-theism is the error of those who deny the existence of the One God.  Practical Atheism consists in living as if the One God were not.

Speculative or theoretical Atheism consists in the assertion that there is no One God. It is provable that no one can in fact be a speculative atheist. The negation of God is rather in the heart than in the mind. "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God." Psalm 13:1.

BT posts:

I cite this Biblical quotation because it was written concerning the general corruption of man before our redemption by Christ.

 

 

Egads! I just saw this and cannot let it pass by without further comment.

BT posts #34

The so called believers have provided proof of the existence of the One God and our certainity of His existence comes by the natural light of reason. I listed 5 proofs in #19 but they are not necessarily the result of scientific proof so you reject them out of hand.

Well, here I go again because it's worth repeating.

The Church teaches that God can be known from created things. The mind of man rises from nature to nature's Origin and Source or Cause. The Universe points clearly to a One God as the First Cause, the Designer, Supreme Lawgiver, Origin of life and Ultimate Good. 

The belief in the existence of God comes from universal reasoning...that is the general consent of all peoples  from the beginning of the world. Believing in God seems to be the natural condition or intuition. The truth is in possession. People do not have to persuade themselves that there is a ONe God. They have to try to persuade themselves there is no God. ANd yet, no one yet who has attained to such a temporary persuasion has been able to find a valid reason for it. In short, men do not grow into the idea of a One God, rather they endeavor to grow out of it. 

Then there is proof from conscience and what is conscience? It is the human mind making a practical judgment upon the morality of our every thought, word and deed. It commands us with decision: This is right; do it. This is wrong; avoid it. And we feel at once an imperative call upon our obedience. There exists within us a strange, mysterious power which is constantly comparing all our actions with an absolute standard of right and wrong, and condemning them without appeal when they go counter to its ordering. Conscience speaks of a necessary duty that we owe. It brings us face to face with an obligatory law whose commands are authoritative, and whose dictates are final and unquestioned. 

Law implies a lawgiver. A command always implies a superior who issues the command. Who can this final, absolute, supreme Authority be, save Almighty God, the original Source of all morality, the ONe Perfect Arbiter of right and wrong? Conscience is merely His voice written in our heart. 

BT posts:

How does contemporary technology or Atheism explain our conscience?

lulapilgrim - ... haven’t forgot you ... was trying to write an article about politics in our daily life ... but just not happy with the article as is so time out. So here I am for some civility for a while before I throw myself into the political grinder anew, whew.