Kfc #283

Yes, we are in full agreement. 

To be more clear, by different epochs of salvation history and salvation coming about one way before Christ and a different way after Christ, I was referring to the two Covenants of God...the one before Christ was with Abraham...circumcision then was instituted by God as a religious rite and as a sacred sign (sacrament) of admission among the people of God. According to its deeper meaning, it pointed backward to our fallen nature (which I've already mentioned) and vitiated origin of life.... and salvation forward after Christ, comes to us through the New Covenant of Grace, and new birth through Christ....instead of circumcision, it's the sacrament of Baptism instituted by Christ as a religious rite and a sacred sign of admission among the new people of God.

God told Abraham what it would take to get into the Kingdom of Heaven, and Our Lord Jesus Christ told us what it would take to get into Heaven...saying,  "Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God....and when asked how this would be done, Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven." St.John 3:3,5

Well, if Jesus meant what He said, and Catholics believe Him literally, then unbaptized babies who die do not see or go directly to Heaven....they go to a place God created that you know as Paradise and I know as Limbo.

All of St.Thomas' teachings on the place called Limbo are based on Scripture and when teaching on the part of the Apostle's Creed which states that Christ, "descended into Hell"...St.Thomas writes:

"As soon as He died , the soul of Christ descended into hell. The hell of which we speak here is limbo, the place in which the souls of the just were awaiting deliverance. He hastened to limbo to announce to the just the reopening of the gates of Heaven. Through His Passion, He had made it possible for them to find glory in the vision of God. He did not descend into Hell of the devils and the lost human souls. There was nothing He could do for them. By their own free decision, they had cut themselves off from God forever. Only those united to Himself in faith and charity could obtain the benefits of His Passion."

"But Sacred Scripture seems to insinuate that both the demons and the souls of men are assigned by God to particular places: to Heaven, Hell, Purgatory or Limbo. Since the fate of the angels and men differs according to their merits or demerits, it seems fitting that God would assign different places in which angels and men will be rewarded or punished. The souls of the Just go to Heaven to be rewarded; the souls of the damned go to Hell to be punished; the souls of those who die in grace but are not yet ready for heaven go to an intermediate place called Purgatory where they will be purified or cleansed for Heaven; and the souls of infants who die without Baptism...will be sent to a place of purely natural happiness called Limbo."     

With respect, these were the fevered written inventions of mortal men.  Religion and politics being de facto fused at the time of their writing, there were political reasons for these constructs.  Sacred Scripture can apparently be subject to 'insinuation' or 'literal interpretation' depending on the subject of discussion.

I choose to believe that God, should he exist, accepts all creation, if made by his hand, into the heavenly afterlife, should there be one.  That 'seems fitting' to me.

Indeed, and the discussions led by the subjects; the personal agendas of men take precedent over most else. (i.e. the First Council of Nicaea I/II, Constaninople I/II/II, Ephesus, and Chalcedon)

Precisely, you have your interpretation. Good points.

~Alderic

Mea culpa, I should have said the thief's soul did not go directly into Heaven...for he couldn't as the gates were still closed and and would be closed until Christ ascended into Heaven 40 days after His Resurrection from the dead. Acts 1.

No, smarty pants, I wasn't there, but I do read the whole of Scripture and like the Ethopian eunuch with Philip, have the Church to guide me in its correct meaning.

After his death, the soul of the Pentitent thief went directly to Abraham's bosom St.Luke 16, aka Paradise aka Limbo of the Just.  And we know that after dying on the Cross, Christ descended into hell, where according to St.Matt. 12:38-41 He was for 3 days and nights preaching to the captive spirits (souls) 1St.Peter 3:18-19, those souls would have been all the Just of the OT as well as the Pentitent thief.

We know from St.Matt. 12:40, that Christ, "the Son of man was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights" and Eph. 4:8-10 tells us the rest of the story.....that "when He ascended on high He led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men. In saying, "He ascended, what does it mean but that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is He who also ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things."

My previous post 289 addresses this; we don't have to assume anything KFC.

The souls in Abraham's bosom, Paradise or Limbo of the Just didn't go into Heaven before Christ...Whom Scripture tells us went 40 days after His Resurrection. Having received the Good News directly from Christ, they remained in Paradise during this time awaiting Christ's Ascension.

LULA POSTS:

I think the confusion is becasue there are lots of terms for Hell in Scripture.  

Yes, Abraham and Lazurus were in Abraham's bosom and the rich man, Dives, was in Hell, the place of the damned. Big separation...Big diff, as you would say.  

Abraham and Lazurus were in the place that Scripture also calls the abode of the dead, same place where Christ descended, called Hell, Sheol in Hebrew, or Hades in Greek. Separate place from the HELL of the damned. Lazurus was received into Abraham's bosom...St.Luke 16; also referred to in Ps. 88 (89):49; 1Kings (Sam.) 28:19;Ezek. 32:17-32. It is these souls who awaited Christ in Abraham's bosom who Christ delivered when He descended into Hell.

Abraham's bosom was turned into or became known as Paradise when Christ told the Pentitent thief today you will be in Paradise...Once Christ descended and preached the Gospel, 1St.Peter 4:6,  Abraham's bosom became Paradise as Christ had called it.

After studying this book for quite some time I am still continually amazed at what I find between the pages.  There is absolutely no way mere man could make this up.  No way.  Oh, there are people who try to rip apart the scriptures...happens all the time.  The trouble is, you need to read it yourself and make up your own mind.  The problem is, nobody reads anymore and can't seem to take the time to research the book for themselves.

My challenge:  Give the book one year of total study.  What's one year in comparison to all of eternity?  If you live to the average of 75 or so, what's one year? 

I saw my father in law a very "religious" man who had no use for the scriptures or any "God talk"  die in terror on his deathbed.  All those years of going to church and being a deacon but not living one day for Christ got him nowhere.  On his deathbed, all that mattered was, he was dying and he wasn't prepared for the trip.  He was scared out of his mind.  Deep down he knew exactly where he was headed.   But it was too late.  Take a year.  Investigate this yourself in a fair manner like you would any other work of antiquity.  See if it stands up. 

what if you're wrong?   What you just said totally contradicts  all of scripture and Christ's own words.   Have you ever been wrong before?  If I'm wrong...no biggie.  I go into a cold dark grave and sleep like all the rest of humanity.  But if I'm right, like God's word reveals to us, and which has withstood every test thrown at it, then I will be reunited with the God who created me out of love and mercy. 

our interpretation is coming from God's word directly....even if Lula and I disagree on some things we are in agreement on many essentials.  So my question to you is.....where is your interpretation coming from and can it be trusted?  Has it withstood the test of time?  Is there any chance of error? 

yes.......I agree with this.  But can't still shake that this is all Limbo means to the Catholics? 

there was NO church guiding the Eunuch.  It was Philip, the Eunuch, the Holy Spirit and scripture.  That's it.   Yes I would consider Philip part of the church but not the same way as you do I guess.  You're saying the RCC, correct? 

could be but not sure if I can or you can say for sure.  There's only one scripture I'm thinking about that could prove you right here.  I'll have to check it out. 

yes and don't forget Gehenna....because that's the real genuine HELL.  Hades (it's gotta be hell if you're sent there) is really only a waiting room for the convicted and awaiting trial. 

and yes......we are agreed!! 

I'm not even going to get into that scripture Lula but I don't think we're on the same page with it.  Yes, that's the first time that I can remember Paradise being used. 

KFC POSTS:

The scripture in post 281 is St.John 3:5 and the explanation is with it....

I further explain it in post 286.

God told Abraham what it would take to get into the Kingdom of Heaven, and Our Lord Jesus Christ told us what it would take to get into Heaven...saying,  "Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God....and when asked how this would be done, Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven." St.John 3:3,5

Well, if Jesus meant what He said, and Catholics believe Him literally, then unbaptized babies who die do not see or go directly to Heaven....they go to a place God created that you know as Paradise and I know as Limbo.

lula posts:

kfc posts:

Yes, it is according to Scripture...Our Lord told us what it would take for infants born with Original Sin to get into Heaven....unless they are born (given new spiritual life) of water and the Spirit (by being Baptized), they cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. Read, meditate and study what Jesus is saying in St.John 3:3,5;

And in Acts 2:38, "But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized everry one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

And in Romans 6:1-6, "What shall we say, then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. For we that are dead to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? 3 Know you not, that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in His death? 4 For we are buried together with Him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we may also walk in newness of life."

And this is understandable becasue Catholic theology of Limbo of Infants and Children is tied to Original Sin and the Sacrament of Baptism, which we insist is necessary to salvation.

ok let's put that verse on the table: 

"Jesus answered: I tell you the truth no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." 

You're ASSUMING because you've been taught that this water means "water baptism."  Makes no sense with the rest of scripture including Eph 2:8-9 (been over this before).  This has NOTHING to do with "water" baptism. 

Even Nicodemus said:  "How can a man be born (with water at birth) when he is old?  Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born." 

The water has to be something else.  That's why Nicodemus asked:

"how can this be?"  If it were as simple as water baptism then why would he ask that question? 

To be "born again" means born from above the second time.  The first time we are born physically, the second we are born spiritually.  Neither time did we do anything in the birthing process....that's what Nic was having a hard time with.  His training (see Christ's admonition about being a teacher) taught him that if we do certain things (like works ie.,water baptism) we can get into heaven.  Now Christ is saying to Nic that the birth comes from heaven and nowhere else. 

Jesus was asking for something that was humanly impossible (to be born again).  The only way to making entrance into the Kingdom was contingent on something that could not be obtained thru human effort.  If spiritual rebirth like physical rebirth was impossible from a human standpoint then where did that leave this Pharisee? 

Jesus said later "Children how hard it is to enter the Kingdom of God!"  (Mark 10). He said that because we can't enter by our own human effort.  Can't be done.   By calling him to be born again Jesus challenged this most religious Jew to admit his spiritual bankruptcy and abandon everything he was trusting in for salvation.  That is, precisely what Paul did.  He wrote about it in Philip 3:8-9 when he said this:

"More than that, I count all thngs to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord for whom I have suffered the losss of all things and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ and may be found in Him not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law (works) but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God (Grace) on the basis of faith." 

As a Pharisee himself, Paul did all the right things he thought would gain him entrance.  He thought he was pretty high and mightly like all the other Pharisees. Thought he had his one way ticket.   Now he counts it all rubbish.  Christ was calling us away from religion and into a relationship with him. 

"born of water" has a number of diff interpretations.  Some see 2 births here, one natural and the other spiritual.  This view would interpret water as the amniotic fluid that flows from the womb just before childbirth.  But the phrase "born of water and the Spirit" parallels the phrase "born again" so only one birth is in view.  Some (like you) see the phrase born of water a reference to baptism but Nic would not have understood Christian baptism (which did not exist).  Nor would Jesus have refrained from baptizing people 4:2 if water baptism were necessary for salvation. 

Some see the phrase as a reference to Jewish ceremonial washings which being born of the Spirit transcends.  Since Jesus expected Nic to understand this truth (v10) it must have been something which he was familiar (not Christian baptism). 

Water and Spirit ofen refer symbolically in the OT to spiritual renewal and cleansing (Num 9:17-19, Isa 4:4; 32:15, 44:3, 55:1, Joel 2:28-29, Zech 13:1) A great passage in all of Scripture describing Israel's restoration to God by the New Covenant God said thru Ezek.....

"For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. (1948)  Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.  Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.  I will put My spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.  36:24-27

Notice who is doing the work?  I gave you hints

Surely this passage that Jesus had in mind showing regeneration (new birth) to be an OT truth which which Nic would have been acquainted.  His point was unmistakable.  Without the spiritual washing of the soul a cleansing accomplished ONLY by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) thru the Word of God (Eph 5:26), no one can enter God's kingdom.  Has nothing to do with water baptism. 

Jesus further emphasized to Nic that this spiritual cleansing is wholly a work of God and not the result of human effort; "that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."  Just as only human nature can beget human nature so only the Holy Spirit can regenerate spiritually.  Even if a physical rebirth were possible it would produce only flesh.  Only the Spirit can produce the spiritual birth required for entrance into God's kingdom. 

Regeneration is entirely His work (as shown above) unaided by any human effort. 

You actually put forth a good verse when you put in Eph 4.  That was the one I was thinking about ( I think) but couldn't recall where exactly it was.  Good job. 

Another one (which we both agree to)  would be John 3:13......"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man." 

Then, apparently, your God will be pleased.

not my God, maybe yours? 

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked shall die?  says the Lord God and not that he should return from his ways and live? 

"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies says the Lord God; wherefore turn yoursleves (to God)  and live." 

Ezekiel 18

Lula posts:

LULA POSTS:

By these words, "Unless a man be born again"...Christ was declaring the necessity of Baptism. And by saying the word water, it is evident that Christ meant the application of it is necessary together with the words of St. Matt. 28:19. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Sorry KFC..there is Scripture that refutes your claim...

We know water was involved by what we read in the command  "...Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." Acts. 22:16. Further this command makes a clear connection between Baptism and salvation, as stated in 1St.Peter 3:20-211 "....ark was a building wherein a few, that is eight souls, were saved by water. 21 Whereupon Baptism being of the like form, now saves you also, not the putting away of dirt from the body but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Christ."

"And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1Cor. 6:11, Three words here, washed, sanctified and justified sum up the effects of Baptism. In addition to erasing Original Sin and any personal sin, Baptism through the Holy Spirit gives us sanctifying grace and the infused virtues.

Titus 3:4-7, "but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

 St. Matt. 28:19, Acts. 22:16; 1St.Peter 3:20-21 and all the rest support St.John 3:5 in which Jesus Himself connects rebirth with water and the Holy Spirit. Water is the mode of Baptism, being regenerated or "born again" is the effect of Baptism.  

Actually, Nicodemus, a Pharisee and apparently a member of the Sanhedrin, was interested in and seemed open to Jesus' message and that's why, for fear of the Jews, this discourse was in secret at night.  

The Jews thought the kingdom of God was to be an earthly one, in which the Jews would reign supreme, but Nicodemus finds out it's a spritiual kingdom and mere blood descent from Abraham goes not give admission to it. For entering the kingdom of God, Jesus says one must be created anew, this spiritual birth being given by the Holy SPirit by means of water. Christ spoke to Nicodemus about man's new interior condition, new spiritual life..it is no longer about being born of the flesh, of the line of Abraham St.John 1:13, but of being reborn through the action of the Holy Spirit, by means of water.

 Christ taught Nicodemus one must be "born again" in a spiritual birth, through water and the Holy Spirit...words referring to the Sacrament of Baptism. After that, He instructed Nic on the mystery of the Redemption and a whole new world is opened up to him. This teaching was not thrown away on Nic becasue he we see later that he spoke in Christ's defense and when Jesus was taken down from the Cross, he helped in preparing the body for burial.

Anyone who has been baptized has been regenerated, been reborn. The mode of application of Baptism is a human effort in that the priest, minister or person immerses or pours water over the forehead of the person being Baptized while calling in the name of the Father, SOn and Holy Spirit, but the effect of grace upon the soul of the baptised person is by the Holy Spirit...so from this pov, I agree, it is entirely His work.

The teaching that Baptism does regenerate the soul, cleanse it from both Original and actual sin, and infuses into it the graces and gifts of the Holy SPirit was universal in the early Chruch as demonstrated in the writings of the Didache 69-70AD. It states the actual sacramental practice of Christians in the Apostolic age...there is just no denying what Baptism is, it's necessity and it's effect....rebirth...through water and the Holy Spirit.

Good job with the naysayers, KFC.