I'm not getting dragged into another "water baptism" conversation argument with you Lula.  Been there done that.   Your scriptures you put up are NOT showing that we are saved by water baptism.   You have been taught that man has do do something to be saved when I showed you plainly...it's all God.....more than once. 

Notice what you are doing.....you're going to other scriptures, not dealing with what I said at all.  You have to bring up other scripture to show that what you've been taught is the correct interpretation.  The problem is that's what the name of the game is all about.  All the groups do this.    They take a scripture or two and make a theology around it but have to dismiss other scriptures which will shed more light...those get ignored. 

Just take what you put down for instance.......

nowwhere does it say that water baptism saves here.  So why are you putting this here?  It says to "make disciples." It doesn't say to make converts.  You can't be a disciple until you've been converted. God does the converting...we don't.    Notice it says "to observe."  Observe what?  These new converts are to learn what it takes to be a Christian by following more seasoned (like the Apostles) Christians.   All you're seeing is the "baptism" part and running with it. 

Baptism is the very first act of obedience AFTER you have accepted the truth. The first thing we, as older Christians are to do after we baptise them in the name of God is to disciple these baby (not physical age but spiritual) Christians.  Sorry to say that's not really being done very well.  The focus is to get them in, dunk them and leave them and go find more converts so we can get the numbers up.  More numbers....more money.....bigger church.  In the meantime you have messed up churches all over the place because no one is really being discipled correctly if at all. 

ANother scripture you use and is an absolute Catholic favorite (you're not the only one) : 

it's the calling on his name, not the water baptism that saves.  We aren't washing away our sins by mere water.  It's the Holy Spirit that washes away our sins. 

"There is no other name under heaven in which a man can be saved."  (also in Acts.) 

it's HIS name NOT the water baptism that saves us. It's all about Spiritual Baptism, not physical water baptism that saves.  You're looking at the flesh, not the spirit here.  That's why Jesus said in John 3 it has to come from above.   

nothing again....to do with water baptism. Where does it say here that water saves us?    It's the Spiritual baptism here....compare this with what I gave you in Ezekiel.  It's God who is doing the washing, sanctification and the justification....not us.  We are incapable.  We cannot give birth to ourselves...it's impossible as Nic said. 

and you shouldn't even have put this one up.  This would support what I'm saying...it really discounts what you are trying to say.  Read this again.  "not by deeds done by us" (water baptism).  You messed up giving out this one Lula.    Notice who's dong the washing and regeneration and go back and compare to that one in Acts I say the Catholics like the best. 

The mix up you have is that you don't understand that it's God who does the cleaning and regeneration.  You think we have to pour water ourselves to do the job usually by another like a Priest. 

The water baptism, while important, as a witness, is not where our salvation comes from.  The water baptism is an outward show of what has happened to us inward.  When Jesus was baptised, it was as an example to us.  He didn't need to get baptised to be saved.  It marked the beginning of his earthly ministry....just like for us.  When we decide to follow Christ, the first step is water baptism.  The spirit has already regenerated us and then we, in our first act of obedience are to be baptized.

But we've been over this over and over and over Lula.  There's not much more to be said.  I would recommend you take every single verse and compare ALL of them.  You're zooming in on just what you want to see because that's what you've been taught by the RCC to believe.  I've been there.  I know all these scriptures and how they're teaching them.  It doesn't do justice to the scripture as a whole. 

and it doesn't serve that we keep going over these same things.  Obviously we're not going to convince each other.  I can't go back to where you are now.   I feel like I've been set free from all that "religion" and that's what Nic was trying to figure out for himself.... which way to go......the religious way he'd been taught by men or the new way this very learned Teacher was bringing him to.  He was at a crossroad and I believe at the end he followed Christ by coming out "in the day" and putting his reputation on the line by lining himself up with the Messiah. 

Why are you kicking against the goad, KFC?

To reiterate a bit....Starting it all with Adam and Original Sin and then to the Abrahamic Covenant of God, circumcision in the Old Testament was instituted by God as a religious rite and as a sacred sign (sacrament) of admission among the people of God. Circumcision was a necessity for salvation and pointed forward to rebirth through Baptism. Btw, even the Jews baptized... it was a form of "purification". But their baptism was a sacramental rather than a sacrament becasue it didn't have the power to remit sin or confer grace which the Christian Baptism does. The Levites were purified by having the water of the sin-offering sprinkled upon them. Num 8. According to the Jewish encyclopedia, every convert to Judaism was required to submit to Baptism which was administered in the form of a ritual bath. (Remember... I've always said that Catholicism is biblical Judaism full blossomed!)  

Here's the theology behind Christ and Baptism.

Adam, our first parent to whom we owe our natural life. With Adam, sin entered the world and by his sin, physical and spiritual death. Rom. 5:12. We are all born with the stain of Original Sin on our soul and no one can enter the kingdom of God with Original Sin. Every soul must be cleansed from state of sin which makes one a child of wrath. Original Sin must be wiped away so that the soul that was spritiurally dead can come to life. In the NT, Original Sin is removed by the laver of regeneration...Baptism.. in the Nicene Creed, "We confess one baptism for the remission of sins."

Why does Christ want His people to be baptized?  Becasue through the pouring of water and the calling of the Blessed Trinity, the gift of supernatural grace enters the person's soul. Baptism wipes out (purifies) the guilt of OS and supernatural birth takes place...we are restored to friendship with God.

Christ instituted Baptism as a necessity for salvation. Nor is there a shadow of doubt that the exercise of the authority to baptize was given by Christ to His apostles...to His Church...St.Matt. 16:19; 18:18. and We know its a necessity of utter importance because the Risen Christ gives 2 commands....go, and make disciples (teach my Gospel and convert) of all nations and baptize them..and then He gives the formula...that is, what to say as they are baptizing the new disciples..."in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit", (in the Blessed Trinity). St.Matt. 28:19.

He positively declared it in these 2 texts. "Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God....and when asked how this would be done, Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven." St.John 3:3,5

"He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be condemned...."damned" says the Protestant Bible. St.Mark 16:16.

Baptism is a sacrament of cleansing (purifying) obtaining remission of Original Sin from the soul and this is affected through sanctifying grace poured into the soul by the Holy Spirit. Through Baptism we are reborn, (supernaturalized) restored in God's favor.

For pete's sake, that's exactly what I've been saying ......Baptism IS all God.  Just as God through the Holy Spirit is Principal Author of Scripture, Christ is the Author and Source of the Sacrament of Baptism, not man, not the Catholic Church.

Christ is the source of the 7 sacraments, Baptism is but one. It is HIS provision; HIS means, His gift of supernatural (sanctifying) grace  by which we become spiritually re-born...."of water and the Holy Spirit".  Baptism communicates God's grace to the soul and by grace, I mean that internal, supernatural help God communicates to us from the divine merit of Christ  which He left to be administered through His sacramental system by the "stewards of the mysteries of God". 1Cor. 4:1. The Sacraments-- Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Eucharist, Penance, or Confession, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders and Matrimony--are the channels through which His supernatural (sanctifying) grace, the fruit of the Redemption flows into souls.

Sanctifying Grace is a gift through which God's love is freely bestowed upon us. Sanctifying Grace elevates and strenghens the soul. It makes us pleasing to God, the Giver of the Grace.     

Here's something for you to consider. Weren't you baptized in the Catholic Church? Even though you left the Church, the seal of Baptism is still with you and will always be with you. 

There was in the early Church as there is today but "one faith" Eph. 4:5 into which St.Peter called upon the people on the first Pentecost Day to "be baptized--for the remission of sins" Acts. 2:38. They were like the Jews St.paul converted, "Baptized into one body" 1Cor. 12:13. That "body" into which they were incorporated by Baptism wasn't the Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, or any other Protestant church. It was the body of Christ, His Mystical Body, the Church...this is the Chruch you've been baptized into...you can leave it, but Baptism will never leave you.    

You know by reading Eph. 4: 5-6 that St.Paul was exhorting the people to unity....there is but "one faith, one Lord, one baptism, one Spirit, one body, one God, one Father of us all. You surely know that this oneness of baptism doesn't exist in Protestant churches whose doctrinal diversity speaks of them to be of man not of Christ.  

Throughout this discussion you insist that you are the one in the know about Scripture and about Baptism and the Christ established, Catholic Church---becasue she insists upon the Aposotlic matter, form, nature and mode of the Sacrament of Baptism--- doesn't. Even though we have Christ's words about Baptism in St.John 3:5 and St.Mark 16:16, you deny that water-Baptism is necessary for salvation.

As far as I can see at this point the question of baptism is reduced to this....What and whom shall we believe? Shall we take the Bible and each of us decide for him/her self the meaning, mode, necessity and efficacy of Baptism? If so, then we will be as far from "one faith, one baptism, called for by Christ as are the Protestant churches.

Or shall we listen to the Chruch Christ told us the hear, St.Matt. 18:17? The Church of docrtrinal unity..the Chruch that existed and baptized before the books of the NT were written? The Church that insists upon the teachings and practices of the Apostles? God gave you the wisdom to make the proper choice.

Certainily there is a chance for error, why not? Just as well, there is a chance for error on your part; there is an equal probability that we are both wrong about our beliefs in that area.

As for where my interpretation - it comes from my mind, logic, education, etc. All the skills and abilities that I have - granted, they're not as refined nor sharpened in my brief two and two tenths of a decade of living, but they're decent.

I have a question for you, one that my mother asked me years back. The only difference is that I will reword it to be adapted for you, she asked me "Why do you continuously seek to deny the existance of God?" So I will ask you:

Why do you continuously seek to prove the existance of God? What is it that drives you to believe in something higher and superior? Why is it impossible,  seemingly, for you to not just be able to accept that things could be different?

~Alderic

I know the answer to this question.  You can tell your mother......"because God has not opened my eyes to him yet." 

It's God who changes hearts and minds.  We are way too deep in sin (dead in our sins) to even help ourselves because we can't see Him.  Given the chance, we would much rather stay in our sins then to change our ways.  It's easier. 

I don't actually. I don't need to.  God's fingerprints are everywhere.   Only God can prove himself to each individual.  God prepares the heart, softens it.  We come along as his ambassadors and throw down the seed of the gospel.  Some of the seed reaches sandy soiled hearts and goes nowwhere.  Some seed falls into rocky hearts and dies off.  Some seed falls into a heart full of other stuff (weeds) and it gets choked out.  Then there is some seed that falls into that prepared fertile soil that God had prepared ahead of time.  From that we get about a 25% chance that the gospel seed we sow finds implants itself and grows.  We don't have any idea whose heart is prepared and whose heart is not.  It's not up to us.  We are just told to go out and throw the seed.  That's what I do. 

Then God continues to water this little seed and if given enough food and water (spiritually speaking.....word of God, obedience to the Holy Spirit, prayer, etc) it grows into a nice plant producing lots of wonderful fruit (love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, etc). 

The Holy Spirit.  When God got ahold of me, I had no choice.  It wasn't me.  It was him.  Are you familiar with the Damascus Road experience that Paul had (Acts 9)?  Sort of like that.  Jesus said..."you do not choose me, I chose you."  Once he puts his hands on you, you become undone.  It's not the same after that.  We are changed (born again).  So for Christians like me, we are twice born in a once born world and that makes us different.......which we are supposed to be.  Peculiar is how God put it.  He has called us to be peculiar....not like the world, but different. 

I'm not sure what you mean "could be different?"  for me or you?  Can you clarify? 

Alderic, 

If you don't mind, even though your question was directed to KFC, I'd like to respond.

It boils down to one word: Happiness. Natural and positive happiness in this life so that I might have supernatural happiness in eternal life in Heaven.

The attainment of happiness depends upon the degree to which we attune our spirit to the Spirit of God.

Becasue it is in God alone where real happiness abides.

No, the RCC baptism means absolutly nothing.  I did nothing.  Somebody poured water on me in a religious rite and it means nothing.  Nothing. I know how much that must horrify you Lula...I know....really I do.   Baptism is supposed to be our very first step of faith; an act of obedience.  Christ led the way.  The Catholics baptize their children out of fear.  Fear that their children will go to purgatory or limbo which is unbiblical. 

I was later baptized by immersion, (like Christ's example) and that's the "water" baptism that I recognize.  I made the choice.  It was meaningful to me.  It was the promise to God that I was his, as a recognition and acceptance of His death, burial and resurrection of Christ.  There is quite nothing like going into a body of water in front of witnesses and going under and up out of the water again to symbolize newness of life. 

If infant baptism was part of the New Covenant, then Jesus should have been baptized as an infant and he wasn't.  God would have told Joseph and Mary to take the baby down to the river and have him dunked.  He didn't.  Nor do we have any instances of infant baptism.  There's a reason for that. 

Consider this:  If "water" baptism is so important to our salvation (and it's not) why didn't Jesus baptize?  Not a one Lula.  Also, why did Paul say to the Corinthian church:

"I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius....."  1 Cor 1:14

You're putting way to much emphasis on a "work."  It's the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is what's important. 

I know you like this verse....go back and read it again.  Only this time read the verse right before it.  Notice the people were "cut to the heart?"  That's the rebirth right there.  God changed their hearts and Peter replies with "repent and be baptized."  Only those "cut to the heart" would be able to receive his message...just like Paul in Acts 9.  Paul also was cut to the heart.  Repentance comes out of a regenerated heart.  Repent means to "turn."  This is when we turn from the world's ways to God's ways and follow him. 

If they weren't "cut to the heart," they would laugh and move on (like most of the world)  because their hard hearts were not regenerated by God. 

God did the washing and regeneration.  They were then to step out in an act of obedience and follow the Holy Spirit's leading.  The first step?  Water baptism.  But it does not save them.   

That there is no God, etc.

All of that can happen without religion - people can change, people can grow, etc. An example would be myself, for a number of years I was - well - not doing well. I was eye deepd in things like drugs, etc. Still, I made the decision to change my ways and I did. God didn't step out and show himself to me, I took the initiative and changed. 

Respectfully, you know the answer according to your eyes, not mine. Personally, i've been mulling around an answer, and I would have to say: (With all due respect)

Because a person does not necessarily need God, and can manage on their own. I've managed to get through multiple dark times in my life on my own strength and will. Why would I put faith in something I cannot see, something I cannot touch, nor hear, nor verify. I can see the ground, I can test gravity, and I can touch things.Why should I be a part of a distinct group - that has a history so bloody and violent, coupled with a superior morality complex and ignorance.

I make mistakes, but I learn my lessons and move on - always maturing, always learning. I'm pretty darn good on my own, now why would I want to put my life in the hands of some *thing*?

No problem.

I can be happy all on my own.

Congratualtions on this.  But how do you know God didn't step out and help you?  Time will tell.  You may be a work in action.  The end of your story is not written yet.  Keep going forward...and keep searching. 

you've got "religion" mixed up with Christianity.  Two diff things.  Christ said...follow me.  When did you see him take another life?  When did he tell us to take another life?  He discouraged any such thing.  Do you know the story in the bible that told us that Peter with his sword cut off the soldier's ear?  What did Christ do to this soldier who was attempting to arrest him?  He healed his ear to complete wholeness.  That's Christ's way.  Not the bloody way you've heard of.  That's man made religion.....not Christianity. 

First of all that *thing* created you.  Second of all that's exactly the first lie that started it all.  Go back, if you will, and read Genesis Chap 3.  That's how it all started.  The lie was all about how we don't need God we can do quite well without him.  I would tell you to not believe it if I thought you would listen but I can see that your mind is made up.  Like I said...only God can change that.  I can't. 

It's not the same.  I know the difference.  Jesus said (and it's absolutely true) that he came so that we can have life and have it abundantly.  Life has new meaning when you are reconciled with your creator. 

Why do I need him? Why rely on Him, when I can rely on myself.

1. God's own word mentions taking lives - whether or not it is because of the specific person taking a life doesn't matter much - it is still taking a life.

Leviticus 24:17 - " 'If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death."

Essentially, an eye for an eye. So far as my abilities tell me, logic dictates that if one person kills another, then that person - according to the bible - has to die. So, the person that carries out the punishment and kills the person, wouldn't they then have to die? It makes no mention there of any sort of justification the punishment/killing.

2. The thing is: Christianity is supposibly the way of Jesus. Well, history has shown us that those who (at least) call themselves christian are way off. They've murdered, blackmailed, etc. in the name of your faith. Now, are they following the word of your God? As far as I know, they are - or at least they say they are. I doubt that is His way.

Essentially, through my years I've developed my own set of morals and ethics. It's safe to say that I've done it without any sort of Christian influence. Oddly enough, I've been drawn toward Buddhism most of all. (Not that i've been buddhist per se, but it's philosophy and such make more sense, without the whole magic being figure) I'm an honest, upright, compassionate guy - among other things, and I do it without any faith, or God(s). Because being that way just makes sense to me.

Granted, I don't conclusively know; however, if it was him, then he chose to not show himself. All evidence points to it being my efforts.Of course, I may be highly skeptical and stubborn - but I'm not closed minded. I'm willing to listen and let things go on. Maybe, just maybe I will find God, or maybe I won't.

Perhaps

~Alderic

Also...

Why is it that some Christians (as well as those of other faiths) just don't live and let live? I realize you're passionate about things, but sometimes...isn't silence the wiser path?

“In the attitude of silence the soul finds the path in an clearer light, and what is elusive and deceptive resolves itself into crystal clearness. Our life is a long and arduous quest after Truth.” ~Ghandi

yes sometimes.  Depends.  There's a time to keep quiet and a time to speak.  I think most of the time we speak too often when we should just be quiet but we, as Christians also are told to go out and "tell."  It's really a matter of letting the spirit lead us.  Too often though we are impatient and go off half cocked and not allowing the Spirit to prepare ahead of us.

But you have to admit, it's kind of hard to be quiet about such things on JU.  I mean if I didn't speak out, how would you know? 

Like I said there is a time....silence is between you and God for your own benefit. Meditation is important in the life of a Christian.   Being silent when we should be telling others about Christ is another matter entirely. 

"Go out and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." 

So that's why you can't come to faith in God?  Because he set down this law in the OT?  Is this a bad law?  First of all  You can't just pull stuff out of context and make a belief out of it....or you can but you're only fooling yourself.  This in Lev is protecting life.  The whole idea is that man was made in God's image and life is sacred to God.  So God initiated capitol punishment to protect life.  This is to protect life, not take life away.  This is a last resort and only with at least two witnesses.  Why would this be bad?  How about you go to the NT and read this:

"Love your enemies and bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you."  Matt 5:44

Didn't Christ practice what he preached?  He's our example.  While we're not perfect like him, he's where the bar is set.  Pretty high I know, but it's only because of him we can do this..   Remember the big story about the Amish and how they forgave those who came into their village and killed their people?  The people of the world watched in wonder when these Amish people followed Christ even to the letter.  There are thousands of other examples I can give you. They let go and let God and when we learn to do that, great things happen in our lives.  God does a much better job with the whole vengeance thing than we do because he's a God of justice, not us. 

"There is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."  John 10:13

again.....that was the OT....what did Christ say in the NT?.....remember Chrisitans are now under grace thru Christ....he said: 

"You have heard that it had been said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you that you resist not evil but whosoever shall hit you on your right cheek turn to him the other also."  Matt 5:38

basic principle in context here is this.....be willing to suffer the loss for another (v38-42) The law of retaliation thru the OT did provide for the ending of feuds but Christ showed another way to do the same. 

These you listed don't sound one bit like Jesus so I very much doubt they were Christians.  You will know a tree by it's fruit.  Would you call an apple tree a pear tree?  Or an orange tree a plum tree?  So why are you putting labels here on non-Christians and calling them Christians?  At least you said "call themselves" Christians.  That's good.  I think you need to reason this out. 

....there are countless stories of real genuine Christians who gave their lives for others sacrificing all just as Christ did.  Most of the time just to give out the gospel against all persecution.  Many, many stories just during the Holocaust itself.  Have you ever read the classic "Foxes Book of Martrys?"  Probably not.   But that's where you'll find the true stories of genuine Christians.  Being a Christian means sacrificing oneself.....not another for the glory of God. 

ok, this makes sense.  Now I get you.  Have talked with many Buddhists over the years.  Good luck with that.  While it may make you feel better it's not going to give you the peace of mind and the promises about the eternal like Christ can. 

But you do have faith.  It's just not in creator God.  You have replaced it with faith in yourself.  Don't kid yourself.  In the end tho, do you think faith in yourself has what it takes to stand the test of time? 

So horrified, I almost threw up my supper.

Even so, as Ephesians says, there is only "one baptism", and you got your only one when you were baptized in the Catholic Church...The seal will always be with you even though (gulp, gag,) you reject it saying it means nothing to you.

Talk about putting emphasis on a work....In this case, since you were already baptized, this was truly just a work on your part, all you did is get wet and have a good time...for you were not baptized all over again, for no one can recieve Baptism more than once.

Had your life been different and had you not ever been baptised directly in the CC, but instead had been baptized as you describe above, IF PROPERLY AND VALIDLY ADMINISTERED, that is, while you were immersed in water, someone said the words, "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", then you still would have been made a member of the CC, for there is only "one faith" and "one baptism", "one body"  which Christ established in the first century even though you are hostile towards her.

It gives me peace of mind, and it's stood many tests so far.

Because some of those people were Pope's and other high ranking officials. They're expected to follow the word, but apparently they were following something else.

I just have a hard time with things that say one thing in one area, and then say another in a different area. That's why i have trouble with politicians, lol.To me, it's a matter of integrity and honesty.

See above.

I agree with the bolded area. That can apply to non-christian/religious folks as well.

~Alderic