YUK.

No I'm saying what I said because we have had this exact discussion before and it never went anywhere.  We all kept saying the same things over and over and neither of us are going to budge on our positions so I see it as pointless to continue the discussion.  You and Lula want to impose your moral code on other people and I want people to have the freedom to run their lives by their own moral code and live with the consequences of their decisions.  Like it or not I see valid reasons for abortions and birth control primarily the health of the woman (my wife for instance likely would have died without getting an abortion and without the pill she develops huge painful cysts on her ovaries).

Well, about abortion in the wrenching cases of rape or incest, even though we disagree, continuing the discussion is important becasue comfortable or not, there are some things that need be said.....and, we just might learn a thing or two along the way.

In the Holy Bible, the child of rape was allowed to live and the rapist was put to death...How far have we come from that? Penalties against rape are lenient and the product of the rape, the child in the womb gets the death penalty.

Just yesterday there was a news story that a man was given 10 years imprisonment for viewing child pornography and another man who sexually molested a child got a year and probation!

Oh for Pete's sake, and every law that is written is based on someone's moral code. But since when is abortion on demand a law since it was decreed to the nation by one of the most debated decisions of the Supreme Court. It's the legislative branch that makes law, not the judiciary one.

Isn't it something like less than 1% of all abortions are performed to save the life of the mother? But I have to ask...why an abortion....usually when a mother's life is in jeopardy, the doctor does a surgical procedure that tries to save both the woman and the baby, if at all possible. This is very different than having the baby aborted.

Why make a law of abortion on demand for any social or economic reason, at any time all the way to the ninth month applying to all women when only a very few have such extreme cases?

Yes... but what kind of soul does it have?

Is God really condemning a soul to never having a chance to live or does this come down to our free will choices we make? It's never God's desire that any should be killed or aborted. Why blame God for this?  It's our choice to go to that clinic.....not God's. 

When we go thru what we deem a trial in our life (in this case an unwanted pregnancy) we make choices as a result of the trial.  In my case, I chose life instead of death for my unborn child.  That was the right choice.  There is no other choice that makes sense and will bless you abundantly like this.  Choosing death while creating a seemingly instant quick fix turns into anything but later on.  It's something the mother will always carry with her long after the child she was carrying is torn from her womb.  It's also something she can not undo.  Going thru with an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy while hard at first will certainly not be regretted later.  In fact, quite often when we make quick instant decisions we do live to regret it later. 

Does what?  What diff does it matter about when the soul enters the body?   It has no bearing on whether or not we have the right to take another's life.   Psalm 139 says this:

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.  I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.  My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place.  When I was woven together i the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body."

I remember when I was pregnant with my first son...I knew immediately within two weeks of conception I was pregnant.  My mother couldn't believe I could know that early but I had what I kept referring to a stich in my side.  It felt just exactly like it says here about being knit together and I had no idea about this scripture at the time.  I just kept saying it felt like I had a stich in my side.  It was very bothersome and very strong.  It would be like having two fingers stitched together and feeling it while you were being stitched up.  Later when I did read this scripture I just sat there thinking this is amazing. 

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!  Damn, what is with some people and their persecution complex?  Relax!  Your religion isn't going anywhere lulapilgrim.  You will always be free to believe in whatever the hell you want to.

You weren't aware?  You see, you get to pick and choose what was literal and what was metaphor.  Stuff like that is ignored because it makes them uncomfortable when asked questions about some of the messed up s*** in their holy books.  

That aside, Obamaniacs scare the hell out me.  If you disagree with Obama about even the most trivial of things, here come the Obamabots calling you RACISTSSSS!!1!   Damn, this is going to be a mind-numbingly long four years.

I'd say no soul since it was man and not God in the work of creating.

Amen....this says it all.

VarekRaith posts:

What do you mean RELAX? My freedom of religion isn't going anywhere???

It's just the opposite...we must stay vigilant or our freedoms will be taken away, religious and otherwise!

Haven't you heard about the bill introduced in the Connecticut Senate to reorganize the financial and pastoral structure of the Catholic Church?  

Yes, religiously, from a conscience pov we will always be free to believe what we want.....but that's not the point....it's also the freedom to express my religious beliefs through speech and association that concerns me and rightly so. 

Take, for example, the politically protected sexual behavior of homosexuality....I imagine it will be sooner rather than later when the Holy Bible will be deemed as "hate speech" because it condemns homosexuality as a sin and religious people like me will be silenced, punished with fines or even imprisoned for defending Scripture and the Chruch's teachings.  

It's already happening in Canada and it's coming here.....which side will you be on when that happens? I hope you'll defend my unalienable right to freedom of speech and association.

I definitely agree that are justice system is far too lenient on sexual predators.  Too often the victim is blamed for the act: "She shouldn't have dressed that way", "She shouldn't have had so much to drink", etc.  When it comes to cases of rape we should require much longer prison sentences and repeat offenders should be given life without parole after the second offense.

I'm all for discussion on the topic the problem is that the three of us have been down this road more than once and it always ends the same way, no one gains anything and no one budges on their position.

And there are plenty of laws that I think are far overreaching in their imposing morals on the people.  There are certainly some that are universal like murder and theft but others fall more into personal choices that should be left up to the individual, abortion falls into that category.  But again this is where we differ and neither of us is going to budge one bit.

It's tough to save a fetus that is only about 8 weeks or so along and developing no where near at the rate it is supposed to with the heart growing outside of what will be the chest.  There was no real option other than to do a D&C to abort the pregnancy.

Just for the record let me clarify that I am not for abortions in the 3rd trimester at all, at that point the fetus should be delivered and put on life support if the woman or fetus's health is at risk, if the neither's health is at risk then she's stuck with the pregnancy till it's over.  And abortions in the 2nd trimester should only be done in extreme cases like the woman's health.

I heard about that and as much as I may disagree with the Christian faith this is a major overstepping of the States rights.  Our constitution guarantees that the government will not get involved in the Church and this bill before the Connecticut Senate should be struck down immediately.  If by some strange occurence it passes the courts better flex their judicial muscle and declare it unconstitutional asap.

Just in case you care, if this were to ever happen I would stand right beside you to protest that action.  I am a very big free speech advocate especially when I don't agree with the speech.

well it's hard to budge when you're right!  The question is who's right? 

And that's my point.  You think that you're right, I think that I'm right.  I'm open to changing my mind but citing stuff from the bible isn't going to change my mind, and I doubt there is anything that I can say to change your mind.

I highly doubt this would happen.

No offense, but this smells of a persecution complex. There are just too many (fervent/steadfast) religious individuals in the States to let this happen. On that note, how many people have truly been silenced, or thrown in jail in modern times (Let's say the past 50) for expressing their faith versus making a derogatory statement?The catch with freedom of speech/expression is that most think that means they can say anything they want, that's wrong.

It seems to me that most Christians (admitteldy, athiests and others as well) think they can make any derogatory statement about anything they want, and have it fall under freedom of religion, or expression/speech. In a civilized society there are certain expectations. It is sort of like a parent settind down the rules for their children.

How would this play into procreation? Would you still consider it God creating the life, or the man and woman creating the life?

It's only a bone of contention politically because once it's admitted that life begins at conception, the gig is up for abortion on demand. Unborn children, "persons" that they are, will be entitled to legal protection as defined by the 14th Amendment.

 Scientifically, it's an established fact. Biological science demonstrates that every human being begins his existence as a zygote and that every living human zygote is a human being at the first stage of development in his lifecycle. This has nothing to do with emotion or feelings nor is it a matter of religion or opinion.

Even though I am not fond of Abortion, I'm going to play devil's advocate. So, you're going to take away the right to choose (a liberty), at the expense of ending abortion? How quaint, and decidely ironic.