Leauki posts:

Remember that Almighty God is Supreme Good and that at the same time He is Supreme Justice...that's how we know there is a hell.

By the way, God does not send sinners to Hell, they send themselves when they defiantly disobey the will of GOd and then die unrepentant.

God is Good. He gave mankind the power of self-direction which enables him to reach heavenly heights or fall into unfathomable depths.

From Ecclesiastes 15:17-18, "The Lord has set water and fire before thee, stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. Before man is life and death, good and evil; that which he shall choose shall be given to him." 

Job asserts the reward of the just in the other life, thus implicitly proclaiming the punishment of the wicked. Joel 3:1-21 and Sophonias 1:3 speak of a Divine universal judgment clearly implying the punishment of the wicked. 

We know there is fire in Hell from what Christ said to the wicked, "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devils and his angels." St.Matt. 25:41.

We also know that Hell-fire is hotter in intensity than fire that we have...because it's kindled by the breath of GOd...

"Behold the wrath of the Lord burneth and is heavy to bear, His lips are filled with indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire. His breath as a torrent overflowing even to the midst of the neck, to destroy the nations unto nothing. "  And another

"Topeth (hell) is prepared from yesterday, deep and wide. the nourishment thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord as a torrent of brimstone kindling it." Isaias 30:27-33.

Evidently there is supposed to be an abominable stench in hell...Is. 3:24, "Instead of a sweet smell, there shall be a stench."

Hell is a horrible and foul place....like a lake of burning brimstone and pitch. "The unbelieving, and the abominable,  and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Apoc. 21:8.

"They shall be tormented with fire and brimstone and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up forever and ever; neither have they rest day or night." Apoc. 14:11.

That is correct.

From dictionaries:

Hebrew: Sin Tet Nun

שטן

devil, fiend, demon, daemon, deuce 

Sin Tet Nun He (feminine noun)

שטנה

accusation

(from Babylon and Oxford Hebrew Dictionary)

Aramaic*: Samekh** Tet Nun

סטן

to be hostile, devil, adversary

(Hebrew Union College Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon)

*Note that this is rabbinical Aramaic already heavily influenced by Christianity and Zoroastrianism. It is not pre-imperial Aramaic.

**Aramaic Samekh ("s") is the same as Hebrew Sin. Sin is a variation of the letter Shin ("sh"). Aramaic uses Samekh for "s" and Shin for "sh", Hebrew uses Samekh and Sin for "s" and Shin for "sh" and Arabic uses Sin for "s" and Shin for "sh".

People who do evil things give off evil "vibes." It's not like demons are walking around looking for someone to inhabit. Besides, not all witchcraft is evil.

I'm not so sure Lula this is speaking of hell.  Why do you think so?  Context doesn't seem to indicate that. 

depends on who you're asking.  According to God all witchcraft is evil and we are to avoid it. 

This comes from St. Bonaventure's homily on the vile odors of Hell. He teaches God decreed that Hell is a prison pervaded by horrible stench as a punishment for those who have taken excessive delight in vain things described in Is. 3. He said the stench of Hell is so vile that if it were on earth, that it would cause all that breathed it to die.

well that's opinion Lula.  Not fact.  He's taking some liberty here. 

He could be right but since he's not been there and back he can't say for sure.  The best picture we have of hell (really Hades) is Luke 16 and nothing is said there about smell. 

I can't seem to see that this scripture is speaking about hell. 

The whole section (v1-26) is about Isaiah predicting further judgments on Jerusalem and Judah.  This prophecy was fulfilled in the Babylonian Captivity.  Has nothing to do with hell unless you wish to say hell on earth for Israel. 

KFC POSTS:

Good answer.

And from the OT to that of the NT, we find God is the source of all authority, including civil authority. Romans 13 is a very good read.  It starts, 13:1 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

On this earth, God gave us 3 spheres of authority..the family, the government, and the Church. So, Civil government is an institution or sphere of authority which was instituted by God.

v. 2, "Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of GOd, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves."

and v. 3 sums it up..."for rulers are not to be a terror to good works, but to evil....."

God is the standard for determining what is good and what is evil. And here in Romans we are told as ordained by God civil government's most basic operational mandate is to be a terror to evil works and a source for what is good.

It seems to me that when in 1963, the American government took prayer out of public schools, they were being a terror to good works...and we have been reaping the whirlwind ever since. I wrote a blog on this and so won't belabor it any more than to make this point. I think that part of the video was spot on.

 KFC posts:

and Proverbs 29:2 fits the bill..... "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; but when a wicked man rules, the people groan." 

lula posts:

Let's say it's opinion based on common sense. Burning matter, such as animals, takes on a horrible odor doesn't it? Now, how about thousands of souls in the prison of Hell's everlasting torment of fire..."Instead of a sweet smell, there shall be a stench."

No doubt whatsoever that Isaias was predicting that punishment would come upon the Jews for their sins...It seems that Isaias speaks mainly of the pride of their women. And some prophecies have multiple fulfillment....this may be one of them...as it's certainly not only the Jews who sin and are prideful.....anyway, I think St.Bonaventure was right on..the prophecy of Isaias, "there shall be a stench" is thus fulfilled in Hell as well.

Two years ago, I went on a religious retreat, called an "Emmaus Walk"; its a very intense three days, in which you attend talks and meetings dealing with the Christian faith and mission; that's a very narrow, shallow overview. It's actually much more than that. I would rate it as one of the best things I've ever done, and recommend it to anyone who is at least somwhat mature in the faith. It's not for newbies.

At any rate; my first full day there, a Friday (you arrive Thursday evening) I was very disappointed.

I didn't like it, I didn't want to be there. Couldn't wait for Sunday evening, so I could go home.

Part of the problem was sleep; the bunks were comfortable, the cabins were heated; but I just couldn't get to sleep. I was tired and miserable all day Friday, and didn't get much out of it. Had trouble sleeping again, Friday night.

Saturday morning, I awoke feeling sick.

Didn't know why; just very nauseated. It wasn't food poisoning; I was the only one who got sick. I ate a little breakfast, but because of my overall mood, I just wasn't into it. As the talks started for the day, I got violently ill. I mean SICK. I hadn't been that sick in years. Ran to the restroom and threw up probably everything I'd eaten in the last 12 hours. I went back to my cabin to lay down.
They kept coming up to check on me, though; this irritated me further, because I just wanted to sleep off whatever this was. At about noon or so, two guys came up, one of whom was a friend from my church who was working in the kitchen that walk. They'd brought me some 7Up, and asked if I'd mind if they prayed a healing on me. I'm not really into that, but said no, I didn't mind, and sat up on the edge of the bunk.

They laid hands on me, and prayed.

After they finished, Emil, my friend, looked me dead in the eye and said, "You need to know that there are forces at work in the world, that don't want you here. They don't want you to get whatever message you've been brought here to get." I nodded, just kind of agreeing to get them out of there, so I could go back to sleep.

Later, one of the head guys came up to encourage me to try coming back down for the rest of the talks; I did, and when I got there, all of the staff took me into the chapel, laid hands on me and prayed. I felt kind of foolish, really, but I went along with it.

Well, later that night, after lights out, I was in my nice, comfy, warm bunk, saying my bedtime prayers.

It was then that I began to shake.

Violently.

Out of nowhere, I felt a chill. I began to shiver so hard, that my teeth were chattering, and I had to literally hold my jaw shut, because I didn't want anyone else to hear it.

Now, please remember, I was under the covers in a heated cabin, which was even a little warmer than I usually like it. And even though I was chilled to the bone, I still felt warm. That's the only way I can put it.

This went on for sbout, maybe ten seconds, I'd guess. Finally, I whispered, "God, whatever this is, I don't like it. Please take it away." Less than three seconds later, I stopped shaking, and the cold receded completely; I fell asleep very quickly.

That night, I slept like a baby, and felt as refreshed in the morning, as if I'd caught up on all the sleep I'd lost the previous two nights.

To this day, I'm convinced that something--some 'thing' I wasn't even aware of--left me that night.

And whatever it was, it was mad at me when it left, because it shook me the way it did, and chilled me.

That showed me that the war we can't see is real. Very real. Let me say here that it's not like I was granted some kind extraordniary "vision" or understanding, but it has given me a lot of food for thought.

Our modern culture rationalizes, and thereby minimizes, things like spirituality, and the bells and whistles that go with it.

Science has its place, but there's a whole, whole lot more to this old world, than your public schoolteachers, college professors, the movies and TV tell you about.

We've been conditioned by popular culture, to think of demonic possession as Linda Blair in "The Exorcist"; dr amatic, gross and horrifying.

Now, even though possession that blatantly obvious does sometimes happen, as in Jesus casting out the demons from the man wandering in the tombs--and, for a more personal testimony, my church's worship leader has attended two exorcisms of obvious possession, which she will--but doesn't like to--talk about, unless it has to do with a Bible lesson, or something like that.

I think that's relatively rare, however.

I've come to think that possession, more often than not, is much more subtle. And simple. Something which somehow comes in, and curls itself around your soul, and finds ways to keep you from God. There are evil spirits; call them demons, dark angels, whatever. I know they exist.

I felt one leave me.

That may well be but it doesn't answer my question.

Where did Jesus say anything against secular government?

Rightwinger.  You said it well.  I kept saying AMEN to everything you wrote here.  People have no idea.   Demon possession or control is most of the time quite subtle.  I saw one blatant demon possesed individual in my life and it was real.  I had known the guy for quite a while and thought he was a Christian.  He went into full demon possessed mode when his new wife was getting baptized.  It took four men to physically restrain him and he was moaning and groaning the whole time.  They said later a sulfer like smell (there you go Lula) was coming out of him.  It was very very scary. 

I've had many experiences over the years where I could see demon interference.  I remember one time I was trying to reach my unbeliever grandmother.  Everytime I tried to speak with her at her home, the phone would ring at the right (or wrong) time.  It felt like she was right there starting to get the answers to her questions when all of a sudden the phone would ring.  This happened more than once. 

So I decided one day to put it on paper and mail to her.  I wrote out, in red pen, the whole plan of salvation using the Roman's road and mailed it.  A couple days later she called me asking if I had sent her something.  When I said I did she said "you know that big rain storm we had?"  I said "yes."  She then went on to explain how her mailbox got flooded out (never happened before) and my letter, written in red, bled.  It all ran in such a way she couldn't even read it. 

Reminds me of Daniel.  After receiving a terrible vision about the end times for the Jews he prayed and fasted for 3 weeks.  The Angel Michael came in answer to the prayer but said he was fighting demons (and chief demon to Persia) to reach Daniel.  While  Daniel's prayer was heard on the first day it was a full three weeks before it was answered because of the spiritual battle going on. 

Yes.  I read recently that a network director or producer was giving a seminar to comedy writers.  One of the things he said struck a nerve with me.  He said for a comedy to be really funny at least three commandments need to be broken.  We've been conditioned for quite a while now to laugh at sin.  We don't even realize we're doing it.  The next time you watch a comedy notice this. 

Not to my knowledge.  He had plenty to say about the religious leaders who were leading the people astray (like I do) but when it came to secular government he said things like "pay to Ceasar what is Ceasar's." 

In Proverbs it says that God puts the kings in their places.  He allows it and we need to recognize it.  Sometimes I think he gives us what we deserve or what we ask for. 

Yes. And that means that secular government in itself is not something Jesus would find sinful. (Although people who want to speak in his name might.)

Exactly.

I mean his concept of hell.  While he was very eloquent in portraying his divine comedy, his notion of eternal suffering was from his roots in christianity.  He embellished on it.  And to my knowledge, most christians have not picked up the concept of hell being frozen over with satan chewing the greatest betrayers of all time (at the time of the writing, a mere 3, but I am sure he would like to include more if he were writing it now - or since the 3 represented the unholy trinity, replace them with some from the more modern era).

Thanks.

Well, I'm sure HE was a Christian; just what was inside him wasn't all that happy with what was going on. And if you want to be perfectly strict about it, demons, and even Satan,  Old "Mr. Scratch", himself, are indeed believers.

That whole thing about your grandmother is a good testimony. If she could have been made to see the hands a work, it might have made your efforts a little easier.

I'm just going on memory here, but we used to have these neighbors, a family of five, which was actually scared into going back to church, because they had purchased a house that had a spirit in it. For whatever reason, it didn't like the father. They eventually sold the house and moved to a rental, but it had followed them.

They weren't church-goers, at all, according to them; in fact they were pretty much agnostics, until the whole family, kids and all, I guess, saw the dad physically lifted into air and thrown down the steps.

When I saw "Paranormal Activity", it kind of reminded me of their story. They had tried everything; psychics, paranormal researcchers, etc.

Finally, a psychic came and did a "reading" of the place, or something, and told them that it wasn't a ghost, but something much more powerful, and recommended they get a priest to bless the house and, if necessary, perform an exorcism. They did so, and the thing disappeared and left them alone, from then on. That's when they started looking for a church.

+LOL+ That's probably very true.

I love, to my everlasting shame, "Two and a Half Men"; it's a guilty pleasure, as is "South Park" which, despite its deservedly raunchy rep, is actually one of the most subtly consrvative shows on the air, as far as social commentary. Many of the subjects it addresses are approached from the right, showing how moronic the more liberal ideals are.

He might not find anything wrong with it per se, but I'd think He would appreciate it much more, if it were a nation organized and governed in His name, referencing, and based on, the values He promoted.

A nation like America, for example.

Rightwinger posts:

KFC posts:

Ditto. And thank you for sharing becasue it has given us a lot of food for thought as well.

It's a spiritual battle for our soul that as a consequence of Adam and Eve's Fall everyone of us is engaged whether we know it or not, believe it or not.