I think you are being intellectually dishonest if you claim that a feature of communism is a feature of secular government just because a communist regime is a secular government.

That's like saying that water does not help against thirst because some water (that in the oceans) is too salty. The problem is not the water, the problem is the salt.

The Nazis thought that the different "races" had different status. They believed that the Japanese were the yellow master race and they believed that the Arabs were the middle-eastern master race (all ultimately led by the top master race in northern Europe). The entire Nazi ideology was complete nonsense which is also why it contradicts itself. The Kurds and Persians are "Aryans" in the ethnic sense while the Arabs are closely related to the Jews. The Japanese are related most closely with (perhaps) the Turks, but even that relatioship is of over 10,000 years ago.

The Nazis certainly didn't mind cooperating with the surprisingly loyal churches in Germany. And the Vatican was also created by the fascists. It was quickly learned that religion was also an excellent instrument to keep people loyal.

The highest level of charity is where the donor does not know the recipient and the recipient does not know the donor.

Prominent members of the Confessing Church, those protestants in Germany who didn't collaborate with the Nazis later said that a Christian can only be a socialist.

If your point is that persecuting Christians is a feature of secular governments but that pointing out that it is governments both secular and non-secular that do so the, yes, I am ignoring your point.

But then your point would be tautological and useless.

You would just be saying that secular governments persecute Christians hence governments that persecute Christians are secular hence all secular governments persecute Christians. What would be the point?

Don't rephrase what I say in order to have a better attack vector.

You are making the same mistake as above. Not all A -> B can be rephrased B -> A.

Just because persecution of Christians (actually all religions) is a feature of communist dictatorships doesn't mean that such persecution is the sole reason for their existence.

I don't know. One rarely hears about those things.

Rightwinger posts 36

Wait a minute...not so fast!    "Sacrificing animals is suspended in Judaism"…..”suspended in Judasim”??? No..no..no..nope.  No sale.

Not according to God; and not according to the Old and New Testament. The Old Mosaic Temple sacrifices as ordained by God to Moses are done....done for good.  Almighty God was making it known that at moment of Christ's crucifixion when the Temple Veil was rent from top to bottom, that the rites and ceremonies of the Old Law were to be abolished for good in 70AD. 

It does if it's run by Secular or Atheistic Humanists.

You are not Jewish. You don't know anything about Judaism. You have proven that again and again here in these forums.

Rightwinger wanted a real answer, not your opinion.

The "New Testament" doesn't define Judaism.

The "Old Testament" does describe the time when there was no Temple and makes it clear that sacrifices happen in the Temple.

If you want to learn about Judaism (and I know you don't), you have to read the Jewish Bible and the Talmud, not the New Testament.

Says who?

G-d didn't "make that known". The early Christians certainly didn't make it known. (And how could they? They neither spoke for G-d nor for Judaism.)

But all of that is pointless anyway, since Rightwinger wanted to know about sacrifices in Judaism, not your religion.

Here's the answer to Rightwinger's question from Rabbi Tzvi Freeman of Chabad, the most influential Hassidic sect:

And the Torah prescribes a whole slew of sacrifices to be made in the Tabernacle in the desert, and then later in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. And guess what? In our prayers, for the past 2,000 years, weve been asking for G-d to let us rebuild that Temple so that we can start doing those sacrifices, just like He asked us to. 

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2942/jewish/Animal-Sacrifices.htm

In contrast to you Rabbi Freeman is an authority on Judaism and Jewish law. He actually knows Jewish law and Jewish traditions and, and this is what I love about him, does not spend his time on the Internet making up stuff about other people's religions.

If by "removing god" you mean that a secular government might stop you or some other band of religious fanatics to force your morality on everybody else then, yes, secular government does "remove god". And thank G-d for that.

Luckily secular government allows neither you nor the Taliban to order people around.

The last thing G-d or Jesus wanted is for the beliefs of one group to be forced on another. Force is the opposite of faith.

WHAT?  That's not what Romans says and why did you skip over v2?  Read the whole three verses in context..1 2, 3!  Let's look at it closely shall we?

1:"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities.  For there is no authority except from God and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 

2:  Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordiance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

3:  For rulers are NOT a terror to good works, but to evil.  Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?  Do what is good and you will have praise from the same."

Where in God's name did you get that the government is a terror to good work from this?  See Lula, this is what you do to make the scripture say what you want it to say.  You skip and you twist to make it work for you.  It doesn't work that way. That's what Paul meant when he said "they twist the scripture to their own destruction."  Be careful. 

Rebellion against the authority implies rebellion against God's ordinance.  Even Jesus subjected himself to the governing authorities of his time which, in His case, meant death to an innocent. 

Leauki's right Lula.  Judism has ONLY suspended the sacrifices.  According to Jesus and the NT it's a done deal but NOT to the Jews.  They don't honor the NT and are awaiting for their temple to be rebuilt and the sacrifices to be reinstated.  I just sent you a link about this.  Didn't you read it?  Not only that but I told you (more than once...sigh) my Jewish teacher who goes over there twice a year (and has for over 35 years) keeps us up on what's going on over there.  They have everything ready to get this going again. 

It's like you puposely DON'T want to believe facts and would RATHER go on opinion instead.  That's why you're ignoring this.

Although Leauki I don't read the Talmud either although I do read quotes here and there as I study in depth.   I believe the OT is inspired but believe the Talmud as opinion, not inspired, by the Rabbis' over the centuries.  Much like the RCC has their tradition which is based mostly on opinion. 

Right on Leauki! 

Yes they did.  This is where Lula's right Leauki.  The early Christians were ALL Jews and they went to the entire OT and put the whole puzzle together especially Paul who was a Pharisee of Pharisees. He knew Judaism better than most if not all.  The mysteries of the OT came into view and he was able to put it togethr for the early Jewish Christians. 

It all came together for them in Christ.  Even when Christ died and after as he said "into your hands I commit my spirit" scripture says the unbelivers beat their breasts and cried out.  They realized then that He was the King they had been wanting to release them afterall. He was the OT future Prophet/King that they were to wait for.  They thought He was an imposter so He was put to death only for them to find out by watching the events of the cross that He was the genuine article after all. 

Yes, Lula.  The best way to show another love is to share the truth with them.  Staying silent may make them more comfortable but it's not showing love.  We are to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. 

@ Rightwinger. 

Here's where we would disagree.  A demon cannot possess a born again believer.  He can make trouble for him, even afflict him but can't inhabit him because there is already a strongman in the house.  Remember a house divided cannot stand.  A person with Christ in Him has no room for a demon to live.  The house is cleaned out. 

I think also of James who said a spicket cannot spew out both fresh water and salt water at the same time.  Either we have Christ in us or another but not at the same time. 

Yes, they believe in Him but not ON Him.  They believe with their mouths but not their hearts.  They acknowledge Him but not willing to follow Him.  The churches are filled to the brim with this type of belief. 

lula posts:

kfc posts:

kfc posts:

You are over reacting KFC.

I made a mistake....In my haste, I made a mistake. I should have written, "Christ said that government authority is subject to ALmighty God and they are NOT to be a terror to good...and allowing children to pray to God in school is a good work, and a government that removes or forbids that is being a terror to a good work."

The second part of what I wrote indicates that I have the correct understanding of Roman 13:1-3 in response to the video and Leuki's comment concerning it.

What I was pointing out here is a continuation of my previous posts.

lula 22

lula 35

lula posts:

leauki posts:

Since when does one have to be Jewish to know about Judaism, especially Old Testament Judaism? Get real.

What you seemingly fail to understand is the difference between OLd Testament Judaism and modern Judaism. The former is God-instituted and the latter is man-made. The differences are HUGE.

It isn't the God revealed OT Judaism that says the Mosaic sacrifices are suspended. rather, it's man's idea most probably from those who believe in Messianic Zionism and folks that get into endtime predictions.

Yes, I understand that. But look again at his specific questions which indicate he was referring to OLd Testment Mosaic Sacrifices.

he asked: You know, I've often wondered.....what do Jews do now, to atone for their sins? Aren't they still supposed to follow the old ways? I mean, I never hear about PETA protests outside synagogues, where lambs, bulls, doves and sparrows are sacrificed to make up for the sins of the faithful.

You answered "sacrificng animals is suspended in Judaism.."

Without doubt, he was referring to Old Testament Judaism and specifically to the OLd Mosaic sacrifices in the Temple. I told the truth...that the Mosaic sacrifices as per the Old Testament Judaism, the sacrifices Almighty God prescribed in great detail to Moses--- together with the manner of offering them and the times when they were to be offered ---are done for good.

God ordained sacrifices be the center of Divine worship under the Old Mosiac Law and God ended them. Why are they ended for good? Becasue all the sacrifices of the OLd Law found their fullfillment in Christ's Sacrifice Who took the sins of the whole world upon Himself. Since Our Lord offered Himself as a Sacrifice, the sacrifiecs of the OLd Law have lost all efficacy and all legitimate existence.

Anything that is done in the way of sacrifices in the Temple is of man..is all about man and man's ideas...not God.

Leauki,

Since Almighty God did make it known and I want to answer in a thorough fashion,  I responded to this question by posting a new article, entitled "The End of the Old Mosaic Sacrifices"

I can't help it.  I'm a defender of the truth and when I see it twisted I speak out.  That's a big diff; what you're saying now and then.  But still that's still not the whole point.  You've got it halfway right now. 

Being a terror to a good work as you say is not the point.  You're going on opinion here.  That's not even mentioned here.  It's not the point of the context. You're bring something into the mix that isn't there.  During Jesus' day the government (Rome) was certainly a terror.  And remember when Paul was writing the NT Nero was in charge.  We all know how terrible he was.  Doesn't matter.  We are still under authority of the government as Christ taught and showed us by his own death by the hands of a corrupt government.  Praying in school is not a prerequiste to belief.  You may not like it but it's not the government's job to ensure this happens. 

Doing what is good here  means to be a law abiding citizen of the government.   If you do what is right in the sight of the law you shouldn't have fear of the authority because you are not bucking their system.  It's not about the government being a terror to us who are obeying the laws.  It's only when we go against their authority the government becomes a terror to us. 

So basically as Christ said "give to Ceaser what is Ceaser's. "   Even if he's taxng you too much.  May stink but God has our back.  We just have to remember that He's ultimately in control of the government. 

KFC,

I've already responded to this. See #54. And it's not only modern Jewry who believe this, Rapturists do too.

and Yes, thank you, I looked at your link.

 
You say, Jews. They .... are awaiting for their temple to be rebuilt and the sacrifices to be reinstated. ..... Not only that but I told you (more than once...sigh) my Jewish teacher who goes over there twice a year (and has for over 35 years) keeps us up on what's going on over there. They have everything ready to get this going again.

KFC,

read the prophecy of Malachias and understand that animal sacrifices can never be legitimate again.   

Seriously,  WHY WOULD ALMIGHTY GOD EVER, EVER ALLOW A RESUMPTION OF ANIMAL SACRIFICES ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF HIS SON'S FINAL SACRIFICE?

What is "Old Testament Judaism"? Judaism doesn't have a "New Testament".

Apart from Karaites (who don't believe in the Oral Torah) and Samaritans (who are a different tribe) there is only ONE Judaism.

(Granted, Ethiopian Jews have a slightly different version of the Hebrew Bible, but so do Ethiopian Christians.)

You don't have to be Jewish to know about Judaism. But if you were Jewish, you would have known the basic principles.

I don't "fail to understand" the difference, I know there isn't a difference.

We have been following the same laws ever since G-d gave them to us. It is Christians who modified the religion, not Jews.

We are still waiting for the Messiah, like we did 2500 years ago. You believe he has arrived.

We still believe in a god who is one and indivisible. You believe your god had a son.

We are still following ancient rituals, you have abandoned them. (Well, you didn't abandon them, since you were never Jewish.)

You just put a think layer of Jewish philosophy on top of pagan rituals.

Now, there are Christians who actually see the Jewish heritage in Christianity but they don't dismiss Judaism as a complete folly.

The difference between Judaism and Christianity might be huge, but the difference between Judaism today and Judaism 2500 years ago are not so huge. We still perform the same rituals, say the same prayers, hold the same things holy, and have the same view of G-d.

We might be wrong in doing so (perhaps Jesus was the Messiah), but we certainly haven't changed much from before Jesus' time. Whenever you say that the Jews still haven't accepted Jesus as the Messiah you should realise that we haven't changed (hence the "still").

What is "Messianic Zionism"?

The Messiah is supposed to be a Zionist. He always was.

That's why the only messiah mentioned as having appeared was King Cyrus, who actually did bring the Jews back to Israel and rebuilt the Temple.

From the (upper-case M) Messiah we expect nothing less.

If you have a "Messiah" who won't do that, your "Messiah" is definitely not the one announced in the Hebrew Bible we are waiting for.

So was I.

The answer is, as I said, that yes, we are still supposed to follow the old ways and sacrifice animals in the Temple.

And yes, without doubt he was referring to "Old Testament Judaism", as there is no other (not counting Karaites).

Nothing new was added to the Hebrew Bible except interpretations. (That's what the Catholic Church does all the time and you don't object to it on the ground that it "changes" the religion.)

Christianity added the "New Testament". That was a change.

But Judaism never added anything after the (Hebrew) Bible was complete.

this has NOTHING to do with the Rapture.  It's totally a whole diff subject. 

I don't know what you're talking about.   Malachi is a mini summary of the entire OT.   Five truths are taught in Malachi

1.  Selection of Israel

2.  Transgression of Israel

3.  Manifesttion of the Messiah

4.  Tribulation upon nations

5.  Purification of Israel

Ask yourself that.  Every week when you go to Mass what are they doing?  They are sacrificing Christ over and over and over again.  Sure they're not killing animals but they are going thru a ritual where they are doing it sans animals. 

Also why does God allow alot of things?  What do you think Jesus meant when he said:

"When you shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place (whoso reads let him understand.)"  Matt 24:15

He was speaking about Daniel's prophecy (Chap9) when the Anti-Christ will put a stop to the sacrifices in the Temple (which will be built) so even Jesus is expecting this to happen.  He's telling us it will.  Standing in the Holy Place is a reference to the Priests who stand but in this instance instead of the Priest it will be the Anti-Christ.  He will put a stop to the sacrifices.  This has NOT happened yet. 

His Jewish audience knew exactly what this was about.  Because they already have a holiday (Hanukkah) to commemorate another instance where this already happened in about 165 B.C under the Syrian Antiochus Ipiphanes who slaughtered a pig on the altar defiling the Temple.  Christ is saying this will happen in the future again.  In order for this to happen sacrifices will be reinstated.  The Temple will be rebuilt.  It's going to happen. 

That was my reaction exactly in that other thread she started.

I think she doesn't know where Malachi is positioned in the Hebrew Bible. I know Christians put it last, but in the Hebrew Bible it comes at the end of Prophets. The sentences she quoted are not even a prophecy and certainly don't say anything about events 400 or 500 years later.