So you think only demonically possessed people can moan and groan?

He was farting!

You mean like how Cartman hates hippies? But he's an asshole.

kfc posts:

lula posts: 54

lula posts 57

kfc posts 59

KFC,

Maybe not your particular view of the "Rapture", but in general, Rapturists also have the same pre-conceived ideas as the Jews but for different reasons. They believe that the Jews will restart the animal sacrifices in a rebuilt Jerusalem about the time the Great Tribulation begins. The idea is that if they rebuild the Temple then Christ will come and "rapture" them into Heaven....aw, but some will be "Left Behind".  We've talked about this before.

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KFC posts

I think all of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled including this one of Daniel. I could go on in detail but that would be getting way off topic.

 Daniels' vision teaches there will be one Messias who will come and then He will be "cut off" (killed). The one Messias and the one Temple and their rise and fall are described in relation to each other. Just remember there is only one Messias and only one Temple (Herod's Temple ..the only Temple God has ever inhabited..and the same one that at Christ's death God rent the Temple Veil from top to bottom).

I'll just say that I agree with St.Augustine whose sermon on St.Matt. 24, says the 70th week in Daniel's vision is not in the future, but rather was accomplished in 70AD, when the Temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was overthrown and burnt to the ground.

Almost all of the early Church Fathers believed that the last week of Daniel ended no later than 70Ad. In this they were in total agreement with the common Jewish interpretation of their time. That Daniel's 70 weeks ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.

Rapturists must do Scriptural gymnastics to place Daniels 70th week in the future.

The bodies of burning animals stink. Therefore burning souls in Hell stink. Yeah. Makes perfect sense.

How can souls burn? How can they feel pain? It's our bodies that contain muscles and nerve endings.

Imbeciles.

nope.  Not at all.  Read Daniel 9:26-27 very very carefully.  I'll explain it as I write it out. 

"And after threescore and two weeks (62 weeks) shall Messiah be cut off (crucified)but not for himself (sinless) and the people of the prince  (not the prince) that shall come (anti-christ) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Jerusalem and Temple) and end thereof shall be with a flood (70 AD) and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 

And he (anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant with many (what we're waiting for now) for one week, and in the middle of the week (halfway) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (abomination of desolation Christ spoke about in Matt 24:15) and for the overspreading of abominations he (anti-christ) shall make it desolate even until the consummation and that determined (preordained) shall be poured upon the desolate (end). "

I think it's remarkable that Daniel predicted with 100% accuracey the crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple more than 500 years before it happened.  But he didn't stop there.  He went all the way to the end when the A.C. would come and stop the sacrifices. 

The timing as you believe (YOU have to do scriptural gymnastics)  doesn't fit 70 AD. If it were consecutive (as you say) the destruction of Jerusalem (70th week) would have been around 39AD (seven years-a week after the crucifixion)  and that doesn't fit.  We know from history it was 70 AD.  There has to be a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week because of the church age. That fits.  The events in Revelation are the 70th week which resumes and that's why it's called Daniel's 70 week.  It hasn't happened yet. 

There's a guy in the 1800's who figured the timing and dates down to the exact day.  Google "The Coming Prince" by Sir Robert Anderson. 

So there you go.  It's right there in Daniel and Christ even referred to it as something to watch out for at the end of time.  And if that is not enough Paul wrote in 2 Thess 2:3-4:

"Let no man deceive you (Lula this would be you) by any means for that day (rapture) shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (anti-christ).   

Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is calld God or that is worshipped so that he as God sits in the temple (rebuilt temple) of God showing himself that he is God (the abomination of desolation that Christ and Daniel mentioned). 

This did not happen in 70 AD.  No man of perdition was revealed.  No one sat in the Temple and called himself God. They came in and destroyed the Temple but there was no abomination of desolation happening then.  You're saying it's all included in 70 AD doesn't make any sense at all including the fact that Christ said this time would be: 

"shall be a great tribulation such as was NOT since the beginning of the world to this time, no, NOR ever shall be."  Matt 24:21

how can you say that is 70 AD?  It has to be a world-wide event.   Are you saying 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was worse than the flood that destroyed the whole world or worse than anything "ever including two world wars?" 

No my friend, not only are you getting some bad information you don't make sense in believing it. 

The church fathers that you are listening to (men) are NOT scripture.  Time and time again, you go to men.  Some did, some didn't.  After years of pouring over the scriptures diff ones have come up with diff theories.  Some stuck some didn't.  As time went on and we received more light things changed and started either to not make sense or to make better sense.  The scriptures never change, but our understanding of them, in lieu of historical findings, evidences and what not, does.    

What didn't make sense 100 years ago, now does.  We have much more information today that we can use to help us with the scriptures like archeology for one thing.  The findings over the years have been a tremendous boost in helping us come up with certain dates and events that help piece things to gether easier than just guesswork which is more in line with what you're saying. 

Infidel posts:

Infidel,

Welcome back to the discussion.

The answer to your question lies in the fact that the Hell-fire isn't anywhere near like fire we have on earth.

Did you miss reading my post 16?

kfc posts:

kfc posts:

Some of the early Church Fathers were contemporaries of the Apostles. Many of them were Priests and Bishops in the Church and they KNEW SCRIPTURE I would dare say better than you or I ever could. Their writings and sermons on Christian doctrines are all based on Scripture and are considered of weight and worthy of respect.  St.Ignatius was Bishop of the Church at Antioch, Syria and martyr for the Faith. St.Irenaeus was a disciple of St.Polycarp of Smyrna. He was a presbyter of the Church of Lyons, during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. He most probably brought Christianity to many part of eastern Gaul. St.Augustine was a priest and bishop of the Church at Hippo, Africa for 35 years. I could go on but hopefully, you get my drift. The point is I am not getting "bad information" from them.

kfc posts;  

OK, ...some did, some didn't. St.Irenaeus (177AD) and Tertullian (200AD) come to mind...they both developed scenarios for the end times that fell into the "speculative" department. The important point is their views were never accepted and developed by the Church. 

It wasn't until St.Augustine who explained the prophetic texts concerning the endtimes in irrefutable language that the unanimous consent was taken as to how these Scriptural passages of St.Matt. 24, Daniel 9 and 2Thess.2 were to be understood.

I understand these Scriptural passages as they did and that's why I wrote...

The early Church Fathers taught that the last week of Daniel is not in the future, but rather was accomplished in 70AD, when the Temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was overthrown and burnt to the ground.

It's also no small point that in this, they were in total agreement with the common Jewish interpretation of their time. 

Those Scriptural passages all support Daniel's 70 weeks ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70AD so therefore they couldn't possibly be pointing to the building of a future Jerusalem Temple for offering animal sacrifices to God.  

If a Temple is built ....it will not be of God, but will be a work of man, by man and for man and and it will be a work in vain.

In your studies and research, dearest friend, please remember..... there is only one Messias the Christ that has come and Christ will come again, not as the Messias, but as the Judge of all mankind at the end of the world.  Christ has both a first and second coming.

(The "Rapture" posits that Christ will have a 3rd or "extra"coming between the other two and that is unBiblical and so alien to Christ's teachings and doctrines that it boggles the brain just thinking about).

As to the possible future building of a Jerusalem Temple, just remember ....there is only one Temple, Herod's Temple that Almighty God the Lord of hosts has ever inhabited..and the same one that at Christ's death Almighty God the Lord of Hosts rent the Temple Veil from top to bottom.

That's when Almighty God the Lord of Hosts announced to the world that He is done with the Temple in Jerusalem and its Old Law animal sacrifices. The Old Mosaic Covenant was perfectly fulfilled by Christ's birth, life's work, death and resurrection. Old Covenant Judaism has been translated into the New Covenant in the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ. 

All the OT prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ. As to the multiple fulfillments cncerning the Antichrist just before the end of the world, all the fury of the Antichrist will be against the sacrifice of the New Covenant.

kfc posts:

As to guesswork, let's be clear. These Rapturists' endtime speculations have been in circulation within the various sects of Protestantism since the 1800s. Christian Zionists and Rapturists are building on their guess-work of Scripture to come up with these endtime scenarios of the Antichrist and specific future political events in the Middle East. 

Your interpretation of the meaning of the passages above is guess-work and it's part truth riddled with errors.  Dangerous errors.

I'm not guessing as to the Scriptural meaning of Daniel 9, 2Thess. and St.Matt. 24. As I have already made plain, I rely on the Church and the Church Fathers' interpretation of Scripture. And this is based on Acts 8:26-40 which is as you know the account of the Ethiopian eunuch who didn't understand the Scriptural passages he was reading and needed an official interpreter. That official interpreter of Scripture was St.Philip, a deacon of the early Church. After hearing the Scriptures rightly interpreted by St.Philip, the Ethiopian was converted and baptized by St.Philip.

If it isn't on Earth, where is it?

Nowhere in your post does it say that the fire is hot enough to burn souls.

Jeez. Logic slaps you people in the face and you turn the other cheek.

lula

Infidel

Good question. I don't know where Hell is, I just know that Hell exists and will be eternal.

Not those words directly but since you asked,

I answered saying becasue they are in the torment of Hell-fire which is hotter than fire we have on earth becasue it's kindled by the breath of God.  

Wouldn't it make more sense if it was kindled by the breath of Satan?

I suppose the idea that souls can burn is a real problem for people who believe in reincarnation.

Really?  That's it?  That's how you debate?  Where's the guesswork?  It's alot easier than you're making it out.  Errors?  Where did I make errors?  Go ahead show me. 

and that's it in a nutshell.  Glad you admit it.  You are going directly against God. (Read Psalm 1,  and 118:8 and the whole of 119) and following men; of course they have to be RCC card carrying members.

nope.  Not true.  Some may believe it but that's not scriptural.  I don't care what "people" think.  I only care what God revealed.

I agree.  But everything is allowed by God so in effect it will be of God because not only is he going to allow it, he wrote about it. 

there is NO official interpreter.  Every born again Christian is like Philip because of the guidance and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 

John wrote to the Christians (Little children v18):

"But you have an unction from the Holy One and you know ALL THINGS.  But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you and you need NOT that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of ALL THINGS and is truth and is no lie and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in Him."  1 John 2:27

The Holy Spirit is our teacher not men of the RCC persuasion.   Good teachers led by the Holy Spirit may help us in our understanding of the scriptures but we should always test what they say to what scripture says.  

Regarding hell: 

Hell is most uncomfortable because we are separated eternally from the light and presence of almighty God.  Hell is separation from love.  Darkness is the absence of light. 

lula posts:

kfc posts:

Then why are you encouraging it?

First..everything is not allowed by God. Second, "so in effect it will be of God" is the wrong conclusion. God gave mankind freewill. It goes to man's free will. God isn't behind a future building of the Jerusalem Temple in any way, shape or form.  Man has freewill to do works of vain such as building a temple in Jerusalem and offering animal sacrifices in it. That God allows something doesn't mean it's of Him.

[quote]I agree. But everything is allowed by God so in effect it will be of God because not only is he going to allow it, he wrote about it.

No, God did not write about a future Jerusalem Temple in the endtimes. It's people who read Scripture and come to this erroneous understanding of it and then build speculative endtime scenarios on it.  

The last Jerusalem Temple mentioned in Scripture is Herod's Temple of the Old Covenant and we both know what heppened with that one.  

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Yes, KFC. This is absolutely the very worse thing about Hell. One who is in Hell is eternally separated from God. 

Same that happened to the First Temple. These things happen.

The First Temple was destroyed by the Assyrians. The Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans.

The Second Temple was built by a Messiah. A Third Temple will surely be built by another Messiah, the Messiah.

You talk about prophecies all the time. But you fail to find any prophecy that actually supports anything you say.

And it shall come to pass that on that day, the Lord shall continue to apply His hand a second time to acquire the rest of His people, that will remain from Assyria and from Egypt and from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam and from Sumeria and from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.

And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

And they shall fly of one accord against the Philistines in the west, together they shall plunder the children of the East; upon Edom and Moab shall they stretch forth their hand, and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

And the Lord shall dry up the tongue of the Egyptian Sea, and He shall lift His hand over the river with the strength of His wind, and He shall beat it into seven streams, and He shall lead [the exiles] with shoes.

And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people who remain from Assyria, as there was for Israel on the day they went up from the land of Egypt.