@Leauki:

True.  These last 7 weeks my husband and I have been teaching the teens in SS the 7 sayings on the cross as we led up to Easter.  Luke records at the end of the last saying ("into your hands I commit my spirit") the people who were watching (Jewish unbelievers) "beholding all things smote their breasts" after witnessessing the whole event including Jesus taking his final breath.   They realized as Christ drew his last breath and his shout at the end that He was indeed the one who came to save them.  He was the long awated King.  They didn't recognize soon enough what the thief recognized earlier.  The thief recognized God himself, Jesus as His King and His need of salvation. 

Another thing I came across in my study this week.  In John 7:27 the Jews asked "Howbeit we know this man where he comes from but when Christ comes no man will know from where He is." 

They were wrong on both accounts.  They believed, as every Jew knew well, the prophecy of Malachi 3:1, that the Christ would come suddenly to his temple.  He would come suddenly, unexpectedly, mysteriously, taking people by surprise.  So this man who is sitting in their temple cannot be the Messiah because we know that He came from Nazereth in Galilee and has been here for 30 years.  They conveniently dropped out the prophecy about the Messiah being born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).  The only prophecy they chose to look at was the one in Malachi concluding that He could not be the Christ. 

In religious matters people are easily satisfied with every imperfect and superficial reasoning, when they want to be satisfied and to be spared further trouble.  Men never want reasons to confirm their will.  This seems to have been the case with the Jews here but certainly is not limited to them. 

A common tradition of the Jews is that when Christ came He would come at midnight as the angel came at midnight when the first born were destroyed in Egypt and that could have been on their minds here.   

When they asked "howbeit we know this man, where he comes from" they meant Nazareth.  This was the universal belief of all the Jews.  When Jesus rode into Jerusalem just before his crucifixion the crowd said "This is Jesus, the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."  When the inscription was put over His had on the cross in the letters of the three langauges it was "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."   But in reality He was born at Bethlehem exactly according to prophecy (Micah 5:2).  This could have been found out easily enough if they had taken the pains to inquire into his early history.  In a nation so strict about pedigrees and birthplaces such a thing could not be hid.  They instead satisfied themselves with the common story of His origin as it gave them an additional excuse for not receiving Him as the Messiah. 

In other words they took up the tradition of men instead of the written word of the prophets.   Some realized afterwards what they had done and "smote their breasts" at the foot of the cross. 

This goes back to what you said earlier Leauki.  It is part of God's dealing with man not to force conviction and belief on any one.  The obscurity purposedly left over Christ's birthplace was a part of the moral probation of the Jewish nation. If, in their pride and indolence and self righteousness, they would not receive the abundant evidence wihich Christ gave of His Messiahship, it could not be expected that God would make unbelief impossible by placing His birth of a virgin at Bethlehem beyond the reach of doubt.  In this, as in everything else, if the Jews had honestly desired to find out the truth, they might have found it. 

Ya, I believe Zechariah is the last prophet in your Hebrew bible?  I know in the Christian bibles the major prophets are put together and the minor prophets are linked together.  It has nothing to do with rank of importance but the length of their writings. 

Lula has been cradle taught "replacement theology" so that's where she's coming from.  She believes the RCC is the "New Israel."  Anti-Semitism comes out of this type of teaching and the reason for the animosity between Catholics and Jews for centuries.   It's a done deal for the Jews.  Too sad, too bad.  They had their chance and now it's gone.  Now it's all about us.

It's clear from reading the prophets while they wrote about two comings they lumped it together to believing in one coming.  They never saw the church age.  They saw his birth, wrote about it, then saw him as King saving their nation in the end.   Some say while they saw in the far distance these two mountaintop prophecies they didn't see the valley inbetween (the church age) so that's why they totally didn't get the whole "suffering Messiah" prophecy.  Again, they willed Him to be their strong conquering King and had no desire to see one that would be put to death for their nation.  They had to ignore some scriptures in order to make the Messiah fit their ideal going after the traditions instead of the prophets.  Israel was known for this all thru the centuries.  Read Jeremiah's writings sometime.  It was plain they wanted their ears tickled by the false prophets and had no use for Jeremiah's words which came directly from their God Himself. 

kfc posts:

I applied Romans 13:1-3 to the video and to Leauki's comment on the video regarding the US Supreme COurt's decision to prohibit prayer in public school in 1963. I think prayer to God in school is a good work. I think that the Court is part of government authority and their decision is a violation of Romans 13:3. Their decision was not good...was a terror to a good work.....

you say, Doing what is good here means to be a law abiding citizen of the government.

Yes, but that is our part of it. However, Romans 13:3 governs Government .....God tells government that it is Not to be a terror to good, but to evil.  

leauki posts:

KFC posts:

Ay..yi.yi! What's up with you two? 

It would be nice if you actually read what I write before plastering this kind of nonsense on these pages.

Here's what I wrote on my other blog about the prophecy of Malachias....

Malachias, whose name signifies, The Angel of the Lord, was contemporary with Nehemias and by some believed to be the same person as Esdras. In the order of time, Malachias was the last of the prophets..he lived about 400 years before Christ. He foretells the coming of Christ,; the reprobation of the Jews and their sacrifices, and the calling of the Gentiles, who shall offer up to God in every place an acceptable sacrifice.

It has nothing to do with where the book of Malachias is positioned in the Bible or Malachias' rank or importance. In the order of time, Malachias' prophecy came last. That's it.

For your info here are the books of the Catholic Bible..in the order in which they appear.....

Genesis....Exodus.....Leviticus.....Numbers....Deuteronomy....Josue....Judges...ruth....1Kings....2Kings....3 kings (1Chronicles)...

4kings (2 Chronicles)....1Paralipomenon....2Paralipomenon....1 Esdras....2Esdras, alias Nehemias.....Tobias...Judith...Esther...Job...Psalms....Proverbs....Ecclesiastes...Canticle of Canticles....Wisdom...Ecclesistticus...Isaias...Jeremias....Lamentations...Baruch...Ezechiel.....

Daniel....Osee...Joel...Amos...Abdias...Jonas...Micheas...Nahum...Habacuc...Sophonias...Aggeus...Zacharias...Malachias...1Machabees....2Machabees

Note: Just as the Hebrew Bible, the book of Malachias comes at the ends of the prophets as well in the Douary Rheims Catholic Bible.

There are reasons for things.....The Protestant KIng James Version has Malachias last because Luther threw out 1 and 2 Machabees.

lula posts:

kfc posts:

Here are the 3 texts that make my point...1:10 Who is there among you, that will shut the doors, and will kindle the fire on my altar gratis? I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will not receive a gift of your hand.

2:3-4, 8 Behold, I will cast the shoulder to you and I will scatter upon your face the dung of your solemnities, and it shall take you away with it. 4 And you shall know that I sent you this commandment, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.  8 But you have departed out of the way, and have caused many to stumble at the law: you have made void the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.

Malachias' prophecy has been fulfilled in Christ and specifically at His death on the Cross and the temple Veil was rent from top to bottom.

NO LULA.  That's NOT what it says.  That's why I wrote it ALL out above.  God is NOT telling the government ANYTHING in scripture. Jesus NEVER addressed the government or told it what to do.  Never.  His concern was NOT politics. 

 The book of Romans is written to the Roman Christians.  This is very important.  NOT THE GOVERNMENT!  God is NOT writing to the Government!!!!   I explained this already above.  God is saying for US not to do evil and if we don't do evil then the government will NOT be a terror to us.  Are you listening?  Did you read what I wrote?  

This is very simple scripture and you're taking it and twisting it.  It says once again:

see nothing to the government.  It's not telling the government to be good.  It's telling us to be good.  Geesh! 

has nothing to do with that but I posted an explanation on your other site. 

has nothing to do with Luther.  Even Jerome said they didn't read like the rest and he put a separation to them as well and he was alive well before Luther was even born. 

Maccabees is not a part of the Hebrew Bible either. And I am sure the rabbis didn't pay any attention to Luther's opinion. I think it's more likely that it was the other way around.

Basically it's just a Hebrew text that was among those translated into Greek in Egypt and then somehow made its way into the Roman state church's Bible. I think the Assyrian (non-Roman) Church doesn't have it either.

Old Testament Judaism is  the God-revealed religion as set forth in the Old Testament. OT Judaism is the religion God gave through Moses and the Aaronic priesthood.

Just to be clear, by revealed religion, I mean the act of justice, both privately and publicly which renders to God the honor, gratitude, obedience and worship due to Him and in the way prescribed by Him.

Almighty God not only demands religious worship, He actually specified the way in which we must offer such homage in both the Old Mosaic and New Covenant.

That's why I said that there is a vast difference between OT (God revealed) Judaism and modern (man-made) Judaism in all of its forms which were developed after 70AD.

The differences begin with the most obvious...That God made Judaism recorded in the OT, was an organic, priestly, authoritative, sacrificial religion. Can't find any of that in modern man-made Judaism.

The OT priesthood spoke with authority. Rabbis are not priests...big difference and no one speaks with Torah authority in any of the modern man-made Judaisms of today.

The OT priesthood were intermediaries between man and God...the Rabbi is in no sense an intermediary.

Modern Reform Judaism is a 19th century German invention of a Reform Rabbis Samuel Hoidman and Abraham Geiger.  Reform Judaism seems to deny what Orthodox Judaism affirms.  

I know the Orthodox division are strict adherents to the Mosaic dietary laws and to Mosaic ceremonialism as elaborated in the Talmud. I know that they ardently pray for the re-institution of the priesthood, sacrifices and Temple (as we are discussing) as well as for the coming of a natural Messias who'll bring happiness to the world by the imposition of Jewish domination.  "The Messiah will give to the Hebrews ruler ship over the world, and to them all peoples will be subject"--Talmud Bab.Shabb folio 120 & Sanhedrin folio 88 & 89. 

But concerning praying for the coming of the natural Messias, they fail to realize that the birth of the Messianic Son of David during the present age or in any future age, is an impossibility, as there is no house of David, or tribe of Judah in which a Messias or any other person could be possibly be born. The Supernatural Messias arrived in Bethlehem, the city of David as predicted in Micheas 5:2, in the time of Daniel 9 and in the manner foretold by Isaias 7:14.

That's why I asked if the Rabbi you quoted above reads the prophets.

 With Christ, the Supernatural Messias, came the end of Old Testament Judaism. OT Judaism culminates in Jesus Christ, a New Covenant Priesthood, the Holy Mass, and the Catholic Chruch.

Old Testament Judaism exists no longer. It fulfilled its mission when Isreal brought forth the Blessed Virgin Mary, her Divine Messianic Son, Jesus, the 12 Apostles, and thousands of converts who formed the membership of the early (Infant) Catholic Church. In the Book of Acts we read of the indisputable fact that the conversion of Jews to Catholicity is based on love, and not denial of OT Judaism (the religious faith) of their Fathers in ancient Isreal. That faith no longer exists for it has been translated (what I like to call blossomed forth) into the "new covenant made with the house of Judah" as predicted by Jeremias 31:31.        

KFC posts:

KFC,

The Holy Bible was written for all people of all times until the end of time. Of course we (including those people who are in government) are to apply Romans to our lives today and those who are living in the future will apply it to their lives then.

KFC posts:

KFC,

Read the first two words of Romans 13:3, it says, "For rulers"...the rulers here are government rulers.... The government rulers are people who God is warning them that when they are acting as rulers in government having authority over people, their authority comes from God and they must be not be a terror to good works, but to evil works.

It's people who make up government authority...(civil authority)..Romans is telling people who rule in government (the civil officials) not to be a terror to good works (conduct0 but to evil works (conduct). In other words, in their laws, policies, ordinances, rules, regulations, official decisions, all must not be a terror to good works, but a terror to evil works.

Romans is a text that teaches how to live under the Social Reign of Christ, the King.  God being the Author of social order, created man as needing to live and develop within a societal community where he is able to freely live his life to attain eternal salvation. When Kings, princes, civil rulers use their governing authority to seek the common good and exercise within the limits of the moral order, they look after the welfare of their people.

We already went through this. That is your OPINION, not fact.

Fact is that modern Judaism follows the same rituals as "Old Testament Judaism".

There are no separate "Old Testament Judaism" and "modern Judaism".

But there is really no point in discussing this with you. You claim to have a divine right to define other people's religions. That settles it. You are a loony.

AGAIN.  THAT'S NOT WHAT IT'S SAYING.  I'VE SAID THIS THREE TIMES SO FAR.  YOUR READING COMPREHENSION IS WAY OFF. He's speaking to the Christians not the rulers.   

The Bible is written to Christians or to those who are searching.  It was written to those who have ears to hear.  Romans was written to the Christians at Rome.  Remember the NT is a compilation of letters.  This is a letter.   Do you know how to read a letter?  During those times they put their name in the salutation not the ending like we do today.  So right off they know who its from.  By going to the beginning of the letter we read this particular letter was from Paul to:

"To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:" 

The Government was not "beloved of God" by any stretch of the imagination during Paul's day.  Nero was in power and would later kill Peter and Paul.  He was worse than Hitler many say.  Yes we are to apply Romans to our lives like you said but this is not a command to the government but to the "saints" in Rome. 

End of story.  You make it much more complicated because you're trying to make it fit YOUR OPINION.  Just read the text in context and remember always....THAT A TEXT TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT IS NOTHING BUT A PRETEXT. 

Lula this is what my husband says of you too.  He says not to even discuss these things because you really don't want to hear. 

That's the problem in a nutshell.  She's way too much into opinion and will not see the facts if they mess with her opinion (or the opinion of the RCC).

Romans 13:1-5,

1 Let every soul be subject to higher powers (governing authority) : for there is no power (authority) but from God: and those that exist, are ordained of God. 2 Therefore he that resisteth the power (authority), resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. 5 Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

lula posts:

kfc posts:

Yes, KFC, that IS what St.Paul is teaching....the doctrine of the Social Reign of Christ which is meant not only for the early Christians to whom St.Paul was writing but for us today, today moreso than ever.

Who are the "rulers" in verse 3? Verse 4 answers that...the "rulers" are God's ministers to us and they are not to be a terror to good works.

kfc posts:

KFC posts

That's only part of it...however, Romans also addresses civil authority directly ....and another scenario...if the government (civil authority) does evil, then the government is a terror to good. 

 Your comments throughout indicate that you understand only part of the full teaching of Romans 13:1-3. But then again that might be becasue you haven't taken into account verses 4 and 5 which go directly to God's ministers.

That's why I posted them above.

So, let's take it from the beginning and perhaps we can come to the same understanding.

Romans 13:1......1 Let every soul be subject to higher powers (governing authority) : for there is no power (authority) but from God: and those that exist, are ordained of God.

Scripture states that God Himself is the source of all authority. Authority residing with one and subsequently given to another to be exercised is delegated authority. Scripture also teaches that there are 3 spheres of delegated authority established by God...and each of these spheres is intended to guide a specific area of man's function in his life on earth. The family is the 1st sphere, the Church is the 2nd and the 3rd sphere of authority delegated by God deals with civil government.  

Here, St.Paul teaches that God Himself delegated authority to be used for governing. Civil government then is a sphere of authority which was instituted by God Himself, but it's not an absolute authority since human individuals are capable of misusing it.

Therefore, each user is accountable to God for his administration of his delegated authority and he's held to a higher standard  than the person who holds none....."to whom much is given, much is required." 

Romans 13:2.... Therefore he that resisteth the power (authority), resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation.

At the same time, when the one entrusted with that authority exercises it in the manner God intended, the authority has the full weight and power of God behind it. To oppose it is to oppose God. 

Romans 13:3...3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 

Civil government is to handle community order and God placed within the institution of civil government the foundational and operational directive in which to do so: Government is to be a terror to evil; it is not to be a terror to good.

So, from this we understand that civil government is an institutiion establlished by God who has delegated authoriity to man to carry ouot governmental functions.

Romans 13:4 speaks about the civil leader or ruler actively involved in civil government. It says for he is to be God's minister to you for good. So, civil authorities are God's ministers who are to deal with the behavior of people as they deal with one another in a community social setting.

Civil authority is to provide optimim benefit  and social order for the good of mankind.

That's why I said:

 You may disagree but I think when the SC banned prayer to God in schools all across the nation, they sanctioned a fundamental shift to evil and we are reaping the whirlwind. Same with the Roe vs. Wade decision. 

Leauki posts:

Impossible. The modern forms of Jewish religion are minus a priesthood, sanctuary, and sacrifices such as existed in Jewry during pre-Christian times. The most important thing for you to understand about modern Judaism is it is devoid of the God -instituted means of atonement of sins.

The Jews who have no priests is left devoid of much more than the means of making th eMosaic called-for offering as an atonement for sin. Modern Jewry is left without a divinely authoritative means of knowing what shall be taught. They are left without a judge in matters of a religious and moral nature recorded in Deuteronomy 17:8-12 such as your forebears were privileged to have in the days before Jesus,the Messias instituted a universal hierarchy to teach matters of faith and morals.

You're confusing bodies and souls.