Enough already. I've never said or used our works as a sole basis for going to heaven. Not once, for I don't believe it.

St.James 2:14-19 explains it: "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed, and filled, without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some will say, "you have faith and I have works" Show me your faith apart from your works and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe---and shudder."

Then you said I'm mixing the law with grace calling it legalism and gave this equation:
Faith + works = justification (legalism)

No, this isn't legalism; it's what St. Paul told the Galatians...as I'll point out below. Luther totally misunderstood the meaning of St.Paul and you're here looking at this through Luther's glasses.


Lula posts





This is Luther's dogma and I know you sincerely believe it..problem is--it's not Christ's teaching that He gave to His Apostles.

I agree, it's perfectly true we are justified by faith, but not by faith "alone" as you keep asserting. St.Paul told the Galatians how we are justified which completely refutes Luther. "We are justified by a faith that worketh by charity." Gal.5:6

What I highlighted above and the quotes below show that's just what I've been saying. What is charity? It's love of God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength for His own sake and love of neighbor as ourself.



I even repeated it:




Just so you're clear what I mean by "works by charity" from here on I'll describe what I believe is the rule of life we must follow if we hope to be saved.

We must follow the rule of life taught by Christ.

We must love God above ALL things and with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength.

We are bound always and everywhere to hate sin and to love God. We must hate sin above all other evils so as never to be resolved never to commit a willful sin.

We must learn to love God by begging Him to teach us to love Him.
The love of God will lead us to always seek to please Him.

We must also obey CHrist's command to love one another...that is all persons without exception, for His sake.

We are to love one another by wishing well one another, and praying for one another, and by never allowing ourselves any thought, word or deed to the injury of anyone.

We are also bound to love our enemies by not only forgiving them from our hearts, but also by wishing them well, and praying for them.

Christ gave us another rule in these words: "if a man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

We are to deny ourselves by giving up our own will and by going against our own inclinations (which are prone to evil) and passions. If these are not self-corrected by self denial, they will certainly carry us to Hell.

We take up our cross daily by submitting with patience to the labors and sufferings of this short life and by bearing them willingly for the love of God.

We are to follow our Lord by following in His footsteps and imitating His virtues which are meekness, humility, and obedience.

The enemies which we must fight against all the days of our life are the devil, the flesh and the world. By the flesh I mean our own corrupt inclinations and passions and by the world I mean the false maxims of society and those who love the vanities, riches and pleasures better than God.

We must watch, pray and fight against all their suggestions and temptations.

In this warfare against the devil, the world and the flesh, we must depend on God only for "I can do all things in Him who strengthens me."

This is typical. You're pulling something out of context to make your point. Let's look at the whole context.

V1-For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore and do not submit AGAIN to the yoke of slavery.

V2-Look; I, Paul say to you that if you accept circumcision Christ will be of no advantage to you.

V3-I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

v4-You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace.

v5-For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.

v6-For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

What Paul is saying here is the law (circumcision) and grace (Christ) simply do not mix. Paul is saying becuase the law is a unit obedience to it cannot be selective (3:10).

What caused them to fall (v4)? Working trying to fulfill the law to be saved. It's works based theology that Paul is going after here. The outward is totally unimportant and worthless, except as it genuinely reflects inner righteousness.

Faith working through love is aying that our life in the Spirit is not static and inactive but alive. Believers are created in Christ for good works which God prepared beforehand for them that we should walk in them. But their working is the product of their faith NOT A SUBSTITUTE for it. The do NOT work for righteousess but OUT OF righteousness through the motivating power of love. In doing so they walk in a manner pleasing to God.

The person who lives by FAITH works under the internal compulsion of LOVE and does NOT need the outward compulsion of the law.

Lula posts:

KFC POSTS:


The whole context actually strengthens and confirms my point.

What's my point..that we ARE NOT justified by faith "alone". St.Paul tells us exactly what it takes to be justified and it clearly isn't Luther's doctrine of "faith alone".

Christ demonstrated that He is superior to the MOsaic Law. The standard of conduct He put before us is for everyone, everywhere at all times, unlike the Mosaic Law, which was specifically for the Jews. Christ reduced the precepts of the OLd Law, set them aside in favor of His New COvenant of Grace, to the 2 commandments on which "dependeth the whole law and prophets".

St. Paul contrasted the salvation which comes through grace, of which faith is the instrument Gal.2:16, with the requirements of the Mosaic Law. The Law did not remit sin Heb. 10:4, or confer justification Gal.3:11-14, or give the life of grace, the supernatural life of the soul 3:21. Jusification and salvation are the result of grace, with faith in Jesus Christ as essential condition. He tells them if someone turns to the Law for justification, then Christ died in vain. 2:21.

The Jews need Christian justification as much as anyone else, becasue they,the Greeks and the whole pagan world are in the bondage of sin, as the Scriptures prove. Rom. 3:10; 23. "All have sinned and need the glory of GOd." Some imagine that there is a guarantee that the punishment of man's sins will be averted Rom. 2:3-4. St.Paul replies to this foolish hope; God will give everyone his due according to his works.

Faith comes before the outward profession of it: "For with the heart, we believe unto justice; but with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation." This was not a new thought. Read Deut.30:10-14 preferably from a DR version becasue the KJV has changed the words.

Luther reinterpreted this and mislead his followers..He said, Man must persuade himself that he has nothing to do with the law and that no sins can condemn him; nay, let him, so to say, boast of his sinfulness and thus take the weapon out of the devil's hand." We are there, KFC. I asked does serious, deliberate sinning threaten one's salvation even if one believes.....and you answered NO.


What St.Paul is teaching here is that faith, unless it be joined to hope and love (charity), neither makes us one with Christ nor loving members of His body. That's why it's rightly said that "faith by itself, if it has no works is dead" and that "in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith worketh through love."

Therefore, a person who has faith (who believes) but does not live in the grace of God is really kind of a dead person. Christ said that His disciples would be recognized by their charity becasue faith begets hope, and hope leads to love. St.Augustine on this teaching of St.Paul wrote: "When one asks if someone is good, one does not check to see what he believes or what he hopes for, but what it is he loves. For someone who loves rightly certainly also believes and hopes rightly; but he who does not love believes in vain, even if what he believes is true. ...Therefore this is the faith in Christ, which the Apostle extols--"faith which works through love." Enchiridion, chap.117.






What I highlighted from St.Augustine also knocks Luther's notion of salvation "by faith alone" out the window. "Justification by faith alone" is a false doctrine KFC.

Then why does Jesus pray for all those who believe in Him?

St.John 17 is Christ's Prayer that takes place at the end of the Last Supper. After praying that His Sacrifice on the Cross be acceptable to the Father, He then prays for unity.  

Eph. 4:4-5 explains what that unity is ..... One Shepherd, one flock, one Faith, etc.....

 

Let's look at the passage....

v. 20, "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that they may all be one...."

You asked, "why does Jesus pray for all those who believe in Him?"....but notice, Verse 20 doesn't have the word "all" in it.

V. 20 says pray also for those who will believe in me...and then notice how that first part of the passage is qualified by the words, "through their message".

So, that puts a completely different slant on it doesn't it? 

 In Verse 20, Christ, after praying for His Apostles and disciples in particular, "them alone", Christ then prays that those who  would afterwards, by their preaching, believe in Him.... that those might be one.

The qualifier in v. 20 that those who shall believe in Him by virtue of His Apostles and disciples, and their successors  preaching the message, is very important because even the demons believe in Him, yet they certainly aren't included amongst those whom Our Lord prayed for.

Christ's prayer for unity is a great comfort to us.

 

Unity is not mentioned, he prays for all believers!

No, the word all is not there, though there is no exclusion there. You're interpreting it the way you want. It doesn't say that he prays for only some believers but "those who willl believe in me through their message", the Apostles message is in the Bible!

You know, you really love that passage, mainly because you use it as your excuse for why the Catholic Church is the ONLY way to go.You conveniently leave out Eph. 4:6 which is the following.

So, let's look at the whole thing:

"Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit", not of the Church. "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." seems to me that includes everyone (your all word you were looking for). Here's another passage on unity.

Let's for one minute look at this. It says to follow Christ alone, not any of the Apostles, not anyone else. It means do not follow Paul, do not follow Apollos, do not follow Cephas or anyone else, like the Pope! It says to follow Christ for he's the one who died for you on the cross. Now explain to me how the Catholic Church gets around that one or are you going to say that I'm just completely wrong on that one because the Pope isn't just another man like the rest of us? Just like Paul was just an ordinary man and Simon was an ordinary man, oh yeah, you call them "Saints" as well and pray to them too!

St. John 17: 6-21

6 I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world. Thine they were, and to me thou gavest them; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known, that all things which thou hast given me, are from thee: 8 Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them, and have known in very deed that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me: because they are thine: 10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled. 13 And now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy filled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.

16 They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one:

Jesus is not praying for all those who believe in Him...for even the devils believe and tremble...St.James 2:19. And Jesus certainly never prayed for the Devil.

So, get "All those who believe"  out of mind for these passages in St.John 17 6-21 specify those for whom Our Lord is praying and why.

In vs. 6-19,  we read that Jesus is praying specifically for the Apostles, v. 11 that they may be one, that is, unified in the one Spirit, that they all preeach the same Gospel,...why is He praying for them?  Becasue Jesus is getting ready to send them out to continue His mission... that is, to teach and baptize all nations in His Name. St.Matt. 28:16-20.  He asks God to sanctify them in the truth...and it follows there is only One Spirit, One God, there is only one truth...Jesus wants His Apostles "all on the same page" so to speak regarding all that He had taught and shown them.

 In v. 20, Jesus, after praying for His Apostles, then prays also for those who after hearing the Apostles' teach and preach the Good News are converted to the Faith (become believers).

You ask WHY does Jesus pray for the believers....the answer is found in v. 21...that they may be one, just as Jesus and the Father are One.

Yes, Christ prays that those who believe in Him are unified....His prayer that they may be one is mentioned 4 times at the end. 

Lula posts:

First, in St.John 17, we learn specifically WHO Jesus prays for....His Apostles those whom they bring to the Faith.

Second, we learn WHY Jesus prayed for them...that they might all be one, as per Eph. 4:3, that they "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."  

Third, Ephesians 4:1-6 confirms WHAT they might be unified in...."One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

 

Before Christ ascended into Heaven, He promised the power of the Holy Spirit would be given to the Infant Chruch just before they would be sent out to teach all nations. Acts. 1:8. Ten days later on the First Pentecost Day the Apostles and disciples recived the Holy Spirit in tongues of fire.   

You have asked on another thread that I might show you how Scripture shows that Christ established a Church that is the Catholic Church of today.

One of the titles of the Church is “the Bride of Christ.” No institution was ever joined so closely to one Man as the Church is with her Founder.” Like Him, she has the universal mission to teach all men and guide them to their eternal destiny.


First, Christ predicted the advent of His Church saying, “I must preach the kingdom of God, for therefore am I sent.” St.Luke 4:43. He called the Apostles and appointed them as teachers and rulers in His Church. “Teach men to observe all things whosoever I have commanded you. Behold I am with you all days even to the end of the world.” St.Matt.28:20. He constituted St.Peter as head, “thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church." St. Peter could not have been the rock-foundation of Christ’s Church unless he was given authority to teach and rule. This authority was promised in the words “I will give to thee the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.” The kingdom was to be a visible kingdom as a city set on a hill. Christ taught and trained them not for their benefit only, but that they might be teachers of others. They were the seed of the Church.

When Christ warned this little society unto themselves about their obligation of correcting the brethren, He said, “If he (the erring one) refuses to hear them, appeal to the Church, but if he refuses to hear even the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth, shall be loosed in Heaven.” St.Matt. 18: 17-18. The spiritual power of the Apostles had extended to loosing and binding…”Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven, and those sins you shall retain, they are retained." St.John 20:23. In these words of commission, the distinctive marks of the Catholic Church already stand out. Man’s relations with God are not left to the individual, but are under the control of authority. This authority was established by the will of God and those who hold it are not all men, but only a few, namely the Apostles. And since the Apostles could not live forever, this authority was to descend to their successors.

Here is the first mention of the word “Church” in the NT, a word that means an assembly and in the OT was applied to the entire people of God. Christ intended the Church to be the new Israel whose authority was to endure forever.

Christ was crucified and rose from the dead. Before He ascended into Heaven, He commanded them to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them, teaching them to observe ALL that he had commanded telling them He would be with them all days until the end of the world. He conferred on St.Peter the power that He had promised. “Feed My sheep. Feed My lambs.” Through this preaching and hearing of the Word, and its acceptance by the nations, the Kingdom of God was to be established, developed and perpetuated.

The Lord ascended into Heaven and for a time His initial group of followers remained in Jerusalem awaiting the event Christ said would take place. On Pentecost Day, the Holy Spirit came upon them in what Acts 2:3 calls “tongues of fire”. After Pentecost the Apostles acted collectively as officers of the newly formed religious society. Throughout Acts we read how they exercised their God-given authority to teach, govern and sanctify. Over both Jewish and Gentile converts, their authority was accepted as from the divine, and they claimed such 1Cor. 2:1-5; or in judging 1Cor. 5 or in rebuking, 1Cor. 6, or in making laws or giving precepts 1Cor. 11, 12 and 14.

Under the Apostles inferior ministers already began called deacons and presbyters and bishops, who together with the Apostles formed a true hierarchy. 1St.Peter 2:9, 12, 25; 5. St.Paul through "the laying on of hands" ordained the fullness of the priesthood upon Timothy and Titus whom he sent to organize churches.

Christ said I will be with My Church all days until the end of the world. Now the only Church that has been all days in the world since Christ is the Catholic Church and if He did not establish that Church, He established none. If that Church failed, then the gates of Hell have prevailed against Christ's Church and He has not been with her all days since His time until now. The Catholic Church alone has the essential constitution prescribed by Christ and alone behaves as possessing the magisterial, sanctifying (7 Sacraments) and diciplinary authority He conferred upon His Church as per the Gospel accounts. Yes, now there are external differences insofar as the grown tree differs from the seed, but the development is in full accordance with the nature and principle of the seed. And Christ knew that just a tree as the Catholic Church is today would develop from the seed He planted.

 

Yes, so let's view church as assembly. All those who "assembled" under Him and followed His teachings were His "church". His flock was all those who would listen no matter who they were, no matter where they were. His "church" today then would be all those who "assemble" in His name and follow Him, would it not? Those who have "unity in the Spirit", in the Holy Spirit, in God's name, not all those who attend what we now call a church.

He told the Apostles to go out as He did and spread the word to all who would listen, to continue what He no longer could. Peter may have founded a church to do this, but Christ himself did not. You must remember again, Peter and all the rest were just normal people when Christ found them. Fishermen and laborers who learned the word of God and then taught what they knew, we are also common people who know the word of God and we should teach what we know to those who will listen. He took the power to teach away from the Pharasees, who were simply using it for their own gain, and gave it to the commoners.

"inferior ministers", would love to know where it calls them as such. Would still love to hear your take on how the Catholic Church gets around 1 Corinthians 1:10-17, too.

Here St.Paul is calling for unity amongst Christians in the early Church. He saw they were squabbling and having disagreements due to preferences for certain teachers...Paul, Cephas (Peter), Apollos. St.Paul was taking the Corinthians to task for the strife and factions that were developing amongst themselves....He was teaching that Christ cannot be divided and neither can they if they work together to be harvestors of men.   

 Correct, we only follow Christ, and learn to do that through Apostolic teaching..That's why Christ sent them to go and teach all nations, baptizing...they would teach others to follow Christ just as they had faithfully done.

 

As to your 1st statement, the Church you are describing here as "His Church" can only be the Catholic Chruch when the things said in the BIble is put together with history.

As to your second statement, "His flock was all those who would listen no matter who they were, no matter where they were" ....His flock are all those who are baptized into the one Faith. It is by Baptism that we are made members of His one flock.

Again, Biblical Judaism was fulfilled, completed and perfected in Christ's holy religion of Christianity....in the Old Covenant ,one was made a member of God's flock by the rite of circumsion...in the New Covenant, one is made a member of Christ's flock by the rite of Baptism. And Baptism is a big deal when you consider that's what Christ gave His authority (power)to His Apostles to do when He gave them the commission to go and teach all nations....

Here it is:

That's why in St.Matt. 28:16-20, "

16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All authority (all power)is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

In v. 18 "All authority (power)"... See here the commission of the Apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ's Church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, he sends them (even as his Father sent him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations; and instruct them in all truths: and that He may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, He promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ himself, who is the way, the truth, and the life. St. John 14.

Here, Christ passes on to the Apostles His authority to teach and baptize. Knowing the Apsotles will not live forever and in order to keep Christ's authority and mission enduring until the end of time, they would have to ordain other men to carry on Christ's mission...and they did...the Book of Acts tells us much of the story...to enable this work, Christ promises to be with the Chruch and never leave it. ...that's promise is of course fulfilled as He sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the birthday of the Church and He is with Catholics in Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist as we believe St.John 6 literally.

No, "His Church", "His flock" is a very distinct, very definite assembly. It can't be all inclusive...it can't be all those who assemble in His name and follow Him because they all aren't united in the Holy Spirt..for if they were, they would all believe the same things. They don't..and why? Becasue in the 1500s, Protestantism fractured Christendom and has been fracturing itself ever since and continues today.

 

 

 

Scripture is clear that Christ Eternal High Priest gave His authority in teaching His faith and morals only to His Apostles who in turn through the laying on of hands, ordained other men in the priesthood.  No one on earth accept these priests have this authority given to them by Apostolic Succession.

1Cor. 1:10-17, is St.Paul is not calling for mere exterior unity, but unity of the Chruch. And the most basic dimension of the Church is unity of Faith. Since the Church is to last from 33AD until the end of time, she must continue to teach and preach the very same one Faith as that Christ taught the Apostles. Here, St.Paul teaches there is no excuse for divisions within the Chruch. Unity is not dependent upon which teacher you had or who baptized you...we are all one in Christ and therefore all belong to Him.

V. 14-17 Catholics believe it's through Baptism that we become a Christian, a part of the one Body of Christ. There are merits gained by Christ's death on the Cross are applied to him and the baptized person is configured to His dead and risen Lord..."Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried therfore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in the newness of life." Rom. 6:3-4.

v. 16 reveals that an entire family was baptized by St.Paul.

 

If you really believe that then you wouldn't be expressing your views here. If no one but them has the ability to teach the word of God then why are we discussing it here?

Mommie4life, you really need to start reading for context. I didn't say Christ gave His authority to teach the word of God only  to His Apostles, rather I said Christ gave His authority to teach His Faith and morals only to His Apostles...."

Scripture describes a particular authority or power Christ gave to only St.Peter and His Apostles and thereby their respective successors, the bishops, priests and deacons in the CC. Only they have the authority and spiritual power through the Holy Spirit to "bind and loose" St. Matt. 16:19; to "forgive and to retain sins" St.John 20:23. Although we are all members of the one Mystical Body of Chirst, no one of the laity has the special authority to bind and loose or to forgive sins. Only ordained priests have that special authority given in 33AD by Christ when He gave the keys to the kingdom to St.Peter and told him to "Feed My Sheep". 

St.John 20:23; St.Matt. 18:17; 16:19; and St. Luke 10:16 teach that Christ's Chruch has authority to act in His name and her leaders have a special authority which must be obeyed in matters of faith and morals. In Hebrews 13:17 St. Paul tells us to "obey them that have rule over you, and submit yoursleves: for they watch for your souls that they must give account...." 

Zwingli, Luther and Calvin and their followers prefering to follow their own private judgment in matters of faith and morals, first protested and then rejected the Church and her God-given authority of Infallibility. That would make every Protestant his own Pope!

 

 

Wouldn't His Faith and morals be directly from the word of God....

Many people prefer their own private judgement in matters of faith and morals, if we didn't it would be a pretty dull world. God told us to talk directly to Him, so yes, as you put it we're our own Pope. We talk directly to God in prayer and ask His guidance, just as Christ did, just as the Apostles did, just as everyone else in the Bible did! Like I said, show me where the Catholic Church was given "God-given authority and Infallibility", after all religious leaders are just as human as the rest of us. The Pope is still human, the Deacons are still human, the Priests are still human, we're ALL human.

If God appeared to me in a vision and told me that it was my job to go preach His world in Africa, would I have to clear that through the Pope first, or should I just listen and obey?

Then why does Christ say over and over again that people were saved by THEIR faith, not anyone else's. If Christ wasn't able to save those who didn't believe then how would anyone else be able to just because they wanted to.