ok, you keep believing that nonesense.  I'll take the truth. 

lula posts:

kfc posts 161:

 KFC,

Will you please read my comments more carefully? 

I said,  "Daniel's 70th week....". When Daniel's 70th week begins or commences.....

There is a difference between when Daniel's 70th week commences (meaning the last week and what this discussion has been focused on) and when Daniel's Seventy weeks (meaning the entire time line of Daniel's prophecy....490 years) commences.

Daniel's 70th week is the last week of the Seventy weeks. I think with the Church Fathers who say Daniel's 70th week has been fulfilled in Christ's First Coming and you think with the Rapturists and Millennialists who say Daniel's 70th week is in the future.

OK, I'll comment on that. Do you agree it's 490 years?

ok, sorry.  You're right.  I thought you meant the whole 70 weeks.  My bad. 

yes.  Starting with the 444-445 B.C. date.  But there is nothing that shows us that his last week has anything to do with his birth.  How can it when it says after 62 weeks (after the first 7) the Messiah is cut off?  If he's cut off at the 69th week how can the 70th week be his birth?  Makes no sense. 

Yes.

Solomon's apostasy and Almighty God's punishment is found in 3 Kings 11: 1-15.

Solomon's reign was glorious at the beginning, but it's end was deplorable. He built palaces to heathen women who turned him away from God and he offered incence to false gods and built temples to them. In other words, he sanctioned idolatry and even enforced it. His monarchy was divided into 2 kingdoms (Israel and Judah) becasue of his apostasy from the faith of the one true God.   His rebellion agains t God brought the rebellion of his people against himself.

The kingdom of Israel lasted for 253 from 975 to 722 BC and during that time it had 19 kings, belonging to 10 different families who all did evil in the sight of God. The Kingdom of Judah lasted 387 years till 588 BC. It had 20 kings all in the family of David, of whom the greater number were wicked.

And that's why God raised up the holy people known as the OT prophets...to bring people back to Him and to preserve the true faith of God. They announced the judgments which would fall on them if they were not converted  and they pointed onwards to the hope of Israel, the Redeemer, foretelling many things about Him. The Lord chose Jeremias to write the truth concerning the apostates of his day.

Anyway, in the days of Elijah as in the days of Jeremias  only 7.000 did not fall into apostasy. Romans 11:4-5.

this is what you said in its entirety. 

I asked you for a reference showing us where regarding the Tabernacle and the Temple it was ended because of Solomon.  What you highlighted in your last response does not say anything about the Temple being a done deal.  In fact, after the captivity God had the Jews rebuild the temple under Nehemiah and Zerubbabel.  So what you say above is not a right interpretation. 

Solomon did come around at the end of his life and turn back to God.   He realized his sin and repented.  But consequences still have to be paid so yes the kingdom was divided.  But that still doesn't have anything to do with a point you're trying to force about the temple, in your words, "all ended."   That's just flat out wrong. 

Like Leauki has told you before, you don't have a good grasp on Jewish history.  You've got alot of things discombobulated. 

Here you brought up Moses and then tried to tie this into Solomon but one is completely different than another.  The reason the Jews went into captivity and lost the temple was because they didn't keep the Sabbath for 70 yrs so God put them into exile for 70 years.   But still that doesn't have anything to do with the temple being ended because God raised up another temple after the captivity. 

Lula, for future reference I don't read what you put down when you put long scriptures down.  So you shouldn't waste your time.  Short scriptures are ok but long ones don't usually get read.   I prefer to read it myself from my own book.   So citing the scripture is great but taking the time to write it all out isn't worth your time. 

And we don't have 3 Kings. 

lula posts:

It says that and answers "when will the kingdom of the Messias come" in Daniel's initial vision which lays the framework for the entire book.  All of Daniel's visions revisit and elaborate on this foundation. In short, Daniel's visions prophecy the First Coming of Christ and the establishment of His kingdom.

Right from the getgo, I know it has to include the birth of Christ from reading 2:34-35. We learn that during the fourth empire, "A stone was cut out of a mountain by no human hand, and it struck the statue upon the feet thereon that were of iron and of clay...so that not a trace of them could be found.  But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." Now go to verse 44 and Daniel interprets this to mean that while the 4th kingdom is still in existence,"the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed and His kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and itself shall stand forever."

The stone which grows into a great mountain symbolizes Christ at His First Advent. His reign established through His Passion supercedes bigtime all the kingdoms of men. During the fourth empire the Messianic kingdom will be established and from the point of history of Christ's Passion onward, God's kingdom is predicted to endure forever. The stone is Christ and the Messianic kingdomthat will come is the result of His Passion and Death...(being cut off).

So to sum up, During the time of the fourth empire, which is when Rome ruled over Jerusalem, the Messias Christ would come (Christ's First Advent) and set up His kingdom which would grow to encompass the entire world and last forever.  

post 161

lula posts

Now  let's get to the numbers.

Remember Daniel wrote this to encourage the Israelites who had been persecuted and taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 606BC.  So, Jeremias foretold that the captivity of Babylon would last 70 years and that the Jews would return to their own country. Counting from the first carrying off of the people into captivity brings us to the year 536. (606-70 years = 536).

Daniel essentially renewed this promise and added more consoling information, namely that from the day on which the order would be given to rebuild Jerusalem to the death of the Messias (His being cut off) there would remain only 70 weeks of years that is, 490 years. The Jews knew not only the family from which the Savior would come, but also the city where He'd be born, and the year in which He would be cut off.

And, if it wasn't for the grace of God's mercy working through Cyrus the Mede, King of Persia, Judaism may have been wiped out then.So, in the 70th year of their captivity, Cyrus, by Divine inspiration, issued an edict that all the Jews who were in his kingdom should go back to Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple.

Daniel 9:24-27, "Seventy weeks are decreed concerning thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting justice, to fulfill both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy, (the 6 blessings) 25 Know  therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem again, unto Christ the Prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty two weeks: and the streets shall be built again and the walls but in a troubled time. 26 And after 62 weeks, Christ shall be slain; and the people that deny Him shall not be His. And a people with their leader shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation. 27 And He shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week; and in the half of the week, the victim and the sacrifice shall fail; and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation; and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation and to the end."

The second half of verse 24 gives a specific length of time before the Christ began to preach and teach and execute the office of the Messias. I arrive at the 490 years by understanding both the first and last week as decades. This would mean that the duration of t he Messias' arrival would be 7 times seven (49) decades = 490 years.

The 490 year timeline starts with a decree to restore and build Jerusalem including the walls.  King Artaxerxes issued a decree to rebuild the city in 457 and according to Nehemias 2:3-13, the walls were finished around 444 BC.

V. 25, The first set of 7 weeks denotes the 49 decades from 457 BC, the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the public arrival of Our Lord, the Anointed One, the Messias in 30-33AD.  The vision states the rebuilding of Jerusalem, the walls and streets will span this second set of weeks, 62 weeks. It also says it will be built in troubled times. History confirms they found themselves in trouble with the Persians, Alexander the Great, the Ptolemies of Egypt, the Seleucids of Syria, all the way to 10BC, when Herod would complete Zerrubbalel's efforts in time for the Messias to enter during His first Advent.

Historically, this is an accurate fulfillment of Daniel's middle 62 weeks. They began in 444 and ended in 10BC, 434 years (62 weeks later).

Daniel's last week, the 70th week, picks up here...with Christ's First Advent, His birth, life, Passion and Death.

In Verse 26 we see how the killing of the Messias is linked to the Temple. The Messias will be killed and both the Temple and Jerusalem will meet its ruin which happened during their generation in 70AD.  The destruction brings an end to the 70 weeks.

In verse 27 the vision rewinds (recapitulates) and we get more details which is very typical of apocalyptic literature.

KFC,

Do you see that in verse 24 Daniel states the purpose of these 70 weeks is to bestow 6 blessings? I believe these were bestowed during Christ's First Advent which means Daniel's 70 th week is history. What say you?

lula posts:

KFC posts

The whole point of this discussion has been around the Jewish Temples...which in case you haven't noticed according to Scripture and history, there aren't any anymore. WHY? I've already answered.

Now, since according to you, I'm "flat out wrong", it's your turn to answer WHY is there no Jerusalem Temple anymore?

Ok, you don't read what I write...that's you. I'm me and I have my own style of writing and commenting. If putting down the full scripture helps make my point, then that's what I do...and btw, I'm quite happy to do it, but it's fine with me if you don't read it.

I thought you might have it in 2Chronicles, but upon investigation, your chapter 9 in the KJV about the queen of Sheba ends with Solomon's death. This account which is chapter 11 in the DR is missing.  

Isn't it Deuteronomy that says you shall not add to the word nor take away?

Why would a self-styled, "It's the Bible and the Bible alone" Christian be working with less than a full deck!

Three are related to sin and three are related to righteousness.  The first three have to do with his first coming, the second set of three have to do with his second coming.  So we would disagree here. Again, because you are backdating everything.

1. to finish the transgression........(to end aposty of the Jews)

2.  To make an end of sins.........(atone for sin)

3.  to make reconciliation for iniquity....(refers to the death of Christ on the cross which is the basis for Israel's future forgiveness)

1.  to bring in everlasting righteousness

2.  To seal up the vision and prophecy

3.  To anoint the mosty Holy. 

but that's it Lula it doesn't help you at all.  Many have told me they don't even read what you write most of the time because you put in lengthy responses.  It's too much information.  I don't read half of it myself that's what I'm trying to tell you. I've tried to tell you before.   It's FYI. 

[quote]Now, since according to you, I'm "flat out wrong", it's your turn to answer WHY is there no Jerusalem Temple anymore?[/quote

For the sake of this discussion it doesn't matter why.  You wrote that because of Solomon and his sin (even though he was right with God at the very end) that the temple would be done away with.  That is not true.  You still haven't shown me even using your own DR version where that is.  Saying his kingdom would be divided (and it was) doesn't prove anything about the temple being a done deal especially since God was totally into having the second temple rebuilt later on. 

why can't you see that this CAN'T be right?  It's ONLY a 7 year period.  It doesn't fit with what you're saying.  Christ was born, died and was resurrected and then almost 40 years later the temple was destroyed.  How can that possibly fall into a seven year period?  The first 69 weeks was exactly 483 years leading up to his death....EXACTLY leaving one more seven year period.  So going by that formula the last week is a seven year period.  It had to start sometime AFTER he was "cut off" as Daniel says.  It can't be the time of the destruction of the  temple because that happened way after seven years later that Christ was crucified.  It can't have started with the temple being destroyed because that doesn't make sense with Revelation nor did it take seven years to destroy it. 

It's like you're just plucking it out of the air to make it so.  Makes NO SENSE. 

KFC posts:

Re: the highlighted...I know this from Apostolic Tradition which you reject.....so, can you back this up in Scripture?

lula posts:

kfc posts:

What I said about Solomon is true.  The Temples ended becasue of the Jews unfaithfulness to God's covenantal laws and apostasy. 3 Kings 11 confirms it. Becasue of Solomon's apostasy, God divided the kingdom. The kingdom of Juda fell into apostasy. They became so hardened in sin that even the Divine chastisements no longer had any effect. They practiced idolatry and even persecuted God's prophets putting some of them to death.

Finally the Lord God's patience was exhausted and Isaias foretold of the ruin which fell upon the people. Nebuchodonozor took Jerusalem after an 18 month seige. The entire city was in fire and pillaged. Thousands were killled and the streets literally ran with blood. The Temple was destroyed and the walls overthrown. Solomon's Temple was destroyed in 588 BC.

Jeremias chose to remain in the ruins of the Temple and was consoled knowing that God would make a new covenant with His new people. "Not according to the covenant which I  made with their fathers, which they made void. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the House of Isreal after those days....." The New Covenant foretold by Jeremias was institutued by Jesus Christ. The OC was an external law which couldn't effect justification or sanctification.

The Temple was rebuilt by Zorobabel and was plundered and desecrated in 169BC by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It was restored and enlarged by Herod in 10BC. In 33AD, at the moment of Christ's death, God rent the Temple Veil in two from top to bottom. God was telling the Jews and the world His presence there in the Holy of Holies would be no more. In 70AD, the Temple was forever destroyed by Titus.    

kfc posts:

No doubt whatsoever that all six blessings of the 70 weeks have been bestowed by Christ already. C'mon KFC....If not for the Passion how could we realistically ever even hope for these last three? But that's me and the unanimous historical interpretation of the Church.

And you're you. So how do you figure the last three pertain to Christ's Second Coming?  

lula  172

kfc posts

KFC,  Did you READ what I wrote... (gulp) I know it was long!!! I said: I arrive at the 490 years by understanding both the first and last week as decades. This would mean that the duration of t he Messias' arrival would be 7 times seven (49) decades = 490 years.

The 7 appears 4 times in the vision. The 70 sevens is subdivided into a first set of seven sevens, a second set of 62 sevens, and a final set of seven called the last week. I see the last week as decades and you see the last week as a 7 year period.

There are reasons for things. In their desire to deny that Christ set up His kingdom during His First Coming and the need for animal sacrifices in a rebuilt Temple about the time the "Great Tribulation" begins, Rapturists/Millennialists have employed Scriptural gymnastics to Daniel's timeline.    

They assume all these sevens signify years and start by placing the first set and the second set in chronological order and then  insert a 2,000 year (and counting) time gap between the second set of 62 weeks and the last week. The time gap is in the middle of verse 26 between the 69th and the 70th week.   How many times have we heard the 70th week is still in the future?

The 2,000 year insertion and the 70th week still in the future is at the heart of the Rapturist/Millennialist belief system.

lula posts:

KFC POSTS

I told the truth and you call it nonsense.

In Biblical Judaism the Old Covenent people of God had the Temple and sacrifices that were prescribed by God HImself. The sacrifices were the offering to God of some sanctified object made by a legitimate priest. Through sacrifice the priest expresses adoration, thanksgiving as well as intercession or supplication towards God. Sacrifice is also an act of sorrow  for offenses against God.

In the OLd Covenant, the sacrfice was  an essential element of man's relation with the Lord God. Is it not expected then that in the New Covenant religion of Jesus Christ which is universal and intended for all people and nations there should be a sacrifice?

Was Christ's New Covenant Church to lack what the Old Covenant Temple possessed? No way for Scriptute is clear the New Covenant is the fulfillment and completion of the OLd. In Hebrews, St.Paul made it clear to the Jewish converts that Christianity has a sacrifice just as had Biblical Judaism, but the two are distinct.

In the OLd Covenant these sacrifices were lambs, goats, doves, oil, bread, salt, wine and other things that were offered to the Lord God. The New and Everlasting Covenant is founded on the sacrifice of the Cross from which it receives its life and meaning. And Christ Our Lord, King and Eternal High Priest told us how this supreme sacrifice was to be perpetuated in Christianity.

The OT prophet Malachais 1:10-11 speaks of the sacrifice of the New Covenant, "I have no pleaure in you ( priests of Jewry), said the Lord of hosts: and I will not receive a gift of your hand. For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is a sacrfice, and there is offered to My name a clean oblation."

So, clearly and definitely the sacrifices of the Old Covenant is rejected, and its place is to be taken by a clean oblation (unbloody sacrifice) offered universally from the rising of the sun to its going down by the Gentiles.

The Antichrist isn't going to give a hoot about reinstituted animal sacrifices in a future rebuilt Jerusalem Temple...the AC is against Christ every which way. The Sacrifice of the New Covenant consists of an unbloody offering under the Catholic rite of bread and wine consecrated into the Real Presence, the Body and BLood of our Lord Jesus Christ. The AC "abomination of desolation" in the New Covenant Temple (the Church) has to do with that.