Where do you get that the meaning was changed?

This article says that Isaiah 53 indeed refers to the Messiah:

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101679/jewish/The-Personality-of-Mashiach.htm

Can't really be more Jewish than Chabad, can you?

No, KFC, the point about Jews and Jesus has nothing to do with Jews changing the meaning of texts. It has simply to do with two things.

One is the fact that Jesus isn't done yet and hence there is nothing but faith that convince anyone that he is the Messiah. If he comes back and does all these Jerusalem things (hopefully before Obama sells the city to the Arabs), this discussion would look quite different.

The other is that the "Jesus is G-d" claim. He never said it. The prophecies never spoke of a Messiah who is G-d. And Jewish law prohibits praying to a man, which means that no man can be G-d since G-d has to be worshipped.

To Jews Jesus was one of many, many claimants to that throne.

One was Simon Bar Kokhba, who actually did manage to bring Israel back under Israelite rule for a few years. Many Jews believed that he was the Messiah. His end was similar to Jesus', as per Roman custom. People stopped believing he was the Messiah when he failed to perform the required tasks.

Another was, quite ironically, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the late leader of Chabad. He never made the claim but some of his followers did. When he died without performing the required tasks (which afterall, since he didn't claim to be the Messiah he didn't have to do), those who believed he was the Messiah simply started believing he would eventually come back and finish the task, which is one of two common methods to deal with a dead unfinished Messiah. (The other is to claim that he did finish the task and ignore the evidence.)

Some Chabadniks even went as far as claiming that Schneerson was G-d. But as usual such claims are rejected by the vast majority of Jews and a large majority of Chabad Messianists.

I understand the most common position among Chabad now is that Schneerson was a candidate for Messiah but didn't become the Messiah. Jews believe that every generation has such a candidate (which means that anyone can become the Messiah).

Anyway, if you look at what happened in Israel during Schneerson's life time (1902 to 1994, leader of Chabad since 1951) you can see how people can make the connection between the learned scholar and the Messiah.

KFC POSTS:

LEAUKI POSTS:

 Yes, Leauki, what KFC says is true.

The key to this is understanding the "W" questions.....WHO were the Jews that made the change; WHEN did they do it and WHY (which KFC answers above...the OT Scriptures fit too closely to the Christ who claimed to be the Messias).

What followed Christ's Ascension into Heaven was the birth of the Church and the going forth of Christianity. The Jewish leadership who were against Christ saw thousands and thousands of Jews acknowledge the Messias Christ and convert to Christianity. 

How did the acceptance of Christ and the conversion to Christianity come about for so many so quickly?

We know that ever since 200BC right up to the time of Christ, the Septuagint was the Holy Book of the Jews that was universally used by the Rabbis of Palestine and it contained more than a thousand years of consistent prophecy of the coming of the Messias, Isaias being only one of them.

So, from 33AD onward, with the use of the 46 Books of the Septuagint, the Infant Church grew and grew spreading Christianity. Then comes 70AD and another blow to Old Covenant Judaism and to the Jews who did not accept Christ. The Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed and the Jews went into dispersion. Then comes 90AD and with the rise of Christianity and its use of the Septuagint, the Jews began to denounce it vehemently. The Jews who rejected Christ went to Jamnia where they developed a new form of Judaism in the hopes of uniting all Jews by undercutting Christian claims of the divinity of Jesus and His identity as the Christ. To do this, they assembled a completely new version of Jewish Scripture ommitting some Books of the Septuagint and rewriting the others. The result which is called the Jamnian or Palestinian Canon changed Judaism forever.

This reconstruction of what is now modern Judaism was influenced by Rabbis who were Sadducees. Politically they tended to favor the Romans, but doctrinally they were heretical refusing to believe in the teachings of the oral Torah such as the resurrection of the dead and life everlasting. So they took out 7 Books of the Septuagint that teach these beliefs. They had always been particularly zealous enemies of Christianity Acts. 5:17-19, so they also rewrote the prophetic texts. 

For instance, a translator by the name of Aquila, removed the word, parthenos---"virgin"---from Is. 7:14, and rendered the passage, "a young woman (neanis) shall conceive". That way they could always assert that the prophecy didn't match what Christians were teaching about the very nature of Christ.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia vol. I, pg. 305, it was Rabbi Akiba, an intense enemy of Christ and His Church, who formed the Jamnian Palestinian Canon...that is 39 Books. It states, "Akiba was the one who definitely formed the canon of Old Testament books" and "that the definitive act of canonization...is known to have taken place in the Synod of Jabneh (90 AD) soon after the destruction of the Second Temple..." Still further, "the motive underlying his antagonism to the (additional books in the Septugint) was "namely the desire to disarm the Christians--especially Jewish Christians---who drew their proofs from the Septuagint; also to fulfill his "wish to emancipate the Jews...from the domination of the Septuagint....used as agruments against the Jews by the Christians" page 306.

Truth is this Akiba and the Synod of Jabheh (Jamnia) through which he operated had no more authority to form a new canon of Scripture during the century after the Jews ceased to have a High Priest (who was the Mosaic supreme ecclesiastical authority) Temple, Altar, and Mosaic sacrifices (which marked the end of Biblical Judaism) than has any Rabbi or group of Rabbis during the 21st century. 

Truth is this Akiba who repudiated belief in Jesus being the predicted Messias, proclaimed a pretender, Simeon, to be the Messias, whom he named "Bar Kochba", Son of the Star, assuming him to be the fulfillment of the prophecy in Numbers 24:17, "A star shall rise out of Jacob...and a sceptre shall spring out of Israel...". Akiba not only "accepted Bar Kochba as the Messias", but he helped him lead a 4 year revolt against the Romans for the capture of Jerusalem 131-135 AD, in which 580,000 Jews are said to have been killed and hundreds of thousands of other Jews perished through sickness, starvation, etc. This Bar Kochba-Akiba rebellion fulfilled completely the prophecy of Daniel 9:26, that Jerusalem would be razed to the ground, which is in the very text where the Jews were told of the coming of the Messias. 

Leauki, You've noted that your Hebrew translations are more closely aligned with KFCs than mine. Of course they are....why?  While the Church adopted the Septuagint as the only inspired Testament to Christ's nature and mission as promised by the Old Covenant and preserved its message through today as the sole and official canon of the Church's Jewish OT Scriptures; Protestantism has not. In 1517, Luther led the revolt against the Church and adopted the Palestinian Canon of 39 Books formed by Rabbi Akiba.

kfc posts 141

If you are describing the fable of Dispensational PreMillennialists who believe in a future 1,000 year reign of Christ as Messias on this present earth Scripture teaches no such thing.

The Messianic Millennium began at Christ's First Coming and it will end at Christ's Second Coming in great majesty and glory to judge the living and the dead. Christ is ruling from Heaven over His Messianic Kingdom, the Church, and will until the end of the world upon which all earthly things, the earth itself and the universe will go through a cosmic upheaval. All life, everything will be obliterated by fire that we cannot imagine. Immediately following, at the blast of a trumpet, all mankind will rise from the dead and proceed to the Final or General Judgment and then those who are judged righteous will spend eternity in the Heavenly New Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth. Those who are judged wicked will spend eternity in Hell.   

So when does your idea of the 1,000 year physical reign of Christ figure in with Christ's Second Coming at the end of the world?

kfc posts:

Yes, I read it. I understand your point however, it doesn't make the case.  Anyway, you think it's the same earth only transformed by fire and I think it's a new one.

In Apoc, 21:1 St.John sees a new heaven and New Earth appear before him while the first heaven and earth "was gone" DR....your KJV has "passed away".

So what does "was gone" or "passed away" mean?

In St.Matt. 5:18, Jesus says, "For truly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished." Apoc. 21 is the time that "all is accomplished."  This was also prophecied in Is. 65:17-18, "For behold I create new heavens and a new earth and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind...."

2St.Peter 3:10-13 which I've already posted gives us details as to how the first heaven and earth will "pass away". In Rom. 8:20-23 St. Paul gives us some details as well but all I can tell from that is that the two will be vastly different.

Our first body was made to deteriorate and die if we sin. But our body in the New Heavens and Earth will be incorruptible and immortal since there will be no sin or death. St.Paul describes the different bodily constitutions in 1Co 15:42-54.

Lula posts:

As to the Lord God's promise of physical land, you are talking about the promises of Genesis 15:18-21 right?

lula posts:

KFC posts 134

Scripture is clear that Christ redeemed us and founded a Church St.Matt. 16:18 and in 18:17, to listen to His Church, which you refuse to do.

In St. Matthew alone, the Church is spoken of 36 times as "the kingdom". Besides St.Matthew, the Chruch is spoken of as "the kingdom of heaven", "the kingdom of God", and sometime simply as "the kingdom."  So the visible Church, with good fish and bad fish, and cockle in the wheat, IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

So, don't say, "NOT even close, Lula". Christ's Messianic Chruch was established by Him at His First Coming and we've been up, down and all around those Scriptural passages that prove it.

You are the one who is not even close as your definition of the Church "as the believers in all denominations" is not found in the Holy Bible but only in the novelties of the 16th century forefathers as is confirmed by a Protestant reference book, "The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church", ed. F.L. Cross, and E.A. Livingstone, Oxford University Press, 1974 and reprinted 1977. page 287, "The Reformation led to the reformulation of the idea of the Church."

Priceless Leauki!  Loved it. 

LEAUKI POSTS:

If the children are disobedient; unfaithful and idolatrous, then consequences follow... they, becasue of their wickedness  lose the gift.  

Lula,

You do not decide whether the people of Israel are wicked. G-d does.

I know the Church has a habit of declaring others wicked, especially the Jews, but again I remind you that I do not believe that any man speaks for G-d.

The land of Israel is back in Jewish hands. It took several miracles but it happened it.

The G-d of Israel, the people of Israel, and the land of Israel. That's where your Jesus came from. He never forgot his heritage and when he, as you say, died for humanity he also and primarily died for his people. Whatever else Rabbi Jesus was, he was first and foremost a Jewish patriot. And his followers taught Jewish law and Jewish philosophy to the pagans. But you perverted his teachings. Jesus' teachings were not about how wicked the Jews are, they were about how right and true the Torah is.

What about the wickedness in the RCC which is more than plentiful these days?  Always has been.  It's just that the secrets are now out in the open.  God will reveal what is hidden and hide that which is revealed.  Did you not know that?    Remember what Christ said about first taking the beam out of your own eye before you dare judge another?    The RCC has done no better job in their responsbility as ambassadors to God than the Jews did. 

Again, open your newspaper these days and read about your mighty RCC.  All over the world they are falling.  Yes, consequences do follow and the Jews did pay for their unfaithfulness to God.  They were chosen to be a light to a dark world and they took their responsibility too lightly. In fact they disregarded it and sinned against God.  But it goes further than that.  God knew from the beginning of time their response to His law and commands so it didn't take God by surprise.  God didn't go "oh look what they've done now.  How could they?"  No, he knew full well what they were made up of and how they would fall.  But it was all part of God's plan. 

There's a poem that reads like this:

Behind the veil that hides the Lord

From our poor human sight,

He stands and sees with pitying eyes

The Jews in sorry plight

Hated, despised, insulted, scorned,

Beaten and murdered too;

They were His brothers when on earth,

For Jesus was a Jew.

Christ died for them as well as us and He wants them to be saved just as He does us.  They are especially precious to God. They were the apple of His eye.  Israel's sins are not condoned nor should we minimize God's boundless love for the Gentiles but the fact remains that in his Sovereignty He has chosen the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for a special token of His affection.  Yes, we are the spiritual heirs as well and the great mystery is that the Jews and the Gentiles will be co-heirs.

We would not have a Bible had it not been for the Jews writing under the inspiration of God.  We are their debtors for this.  Paul, a Jew had a great love and ministry for the Gentiles.  We should not forget this.  Our Savior came as a Jew. 

The Jews are central in the earthly kingdom to be set up by Christ when He returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  They will be the leading nation and Jerusalem the world capital when Christ personally takes over the reins of the government of the world.  As the "time of the Gentiles" is drawing to a close the time for Israel's purging and restoration (day of Jacob's trouble) their "blindness in part" is going to give way to light and the Jews will again be center stage in God's masterful plan. 

We need to pray for the Jews Lula and encourage them not bash them over the heads telling them that God is finished with them.  God is not finished with the Jews nor the Jewish Homeland.  He still has a great plan for them and for the whole world that involves the Holy City of Jerusalem.  It is where God's heart is on earth.   He will once again set up his Kingdom there with a New Jerusalem one day I believe is in the near future.  I believe I will see this in my lifetime. 

Beautiful.

Jews believe that Israel, the land and the people, survives despite being weaker than everybody else because G-d helps us.

If G-d wanted to be a human being to show humanity that He understands what humans go through, why wouldn't He appear as a Jew? If Jesus had been a Roman master, Christianity would just have been one of the Roman sects. (In fact there were hundreds of Romans who directly claimed to be gods. What did they teach humanity?)

If Jesus came back today and tried to visit Bethlehem, he would be surprised (metaphorically) to learn that there are almost no Christians in Bethlehem and Obama would tell him that his birth place, the stable, is an illegal settlement. (And it would be hard for Jesus, a Jew, to find a place to stay in a local hostel.)

Under Palestinian law, Jesus would not even be allowed to be born in Bethlehem.

more than that Leauki.  Had Jesus came in our day to an unmarried 14-15 year old he most likely would have been aborted.

Jesus came in the fullness of time exactly when the timing was best.  It's said that God is never late but he's never early either.  He comes exactly on time. 

Yes, that's a possibility; although I do hope that an pregnant unmarried Jewish woman today would not abort, especially when she has a future husband at her side. I don't know how likely abortions are among Jews. Also note that back then Roman families didn't abort but rather killed the infant after birth if they thought there was something wrong with it. That's beyond even partial-birth abortion. A Jewish mother was then a safer bet if you wouldn't the child to come through.

But as difficult as times were back then for Jesus' (human) family, can you imagine what would happen to an unmarried mother in today's Bethlehem? She wouldn't have to be Jewish to be in trouble. And if Hamas had their way, she would have been stoned for adultery before she could even think about abortion.

And I don't think the woman could flee to Egypt either.

The Lord God told us through Scripture that Jews were disobedient, unfaithful and idolatrous and that in the days of Elijas and Jeremias only a remnant 7,000, did not fall into apostasy.

KFC POSTS:

Yes, I agree. And Our Lord told us there would be good fish and bad fish in the Net (His Church) and warned that scandals would come and woe to those who cause them. If they die in the state of grevious sin (wickedness), they will go to Hell.

St.Matt. 12:35-37, Jesus reminds people that there is a Judgment.  "The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you on the day of Judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

So, yes, there is a particular judgement immediately after one dies, and a General Judgment at the end of the world.

my guess in this country they would.  The U.S. Jews are very liberal minded and tend to vote democratic so that tells me they would have no trouble aborting today.  I have two Jewish friends here.  Neither one of them is observant although they both cherish their heritage.  They both have told me that I know more than they do about their religion because I know their scriptures and they haven't any idea about them. 

speaking of Hamas did you know that in scripture the word for violence is Hamas?  I was just reading about violence in the book of Habakkuk and it's "hamas."  Maybe if my liberal Jewish friends knew that yanking a baby out of the womb with the thought to destroy it is an act of hamas they would think differently? 

I agree to a point.  You and I would disagree about the "General Judgment" but for the most part let's say we agree here.  But my question is to you why do you have a particular set of rules for Israel and their rejection (wickedness as you say) and what the RCC is doing?  By going thru with their evil deeds and schemes they too are showing rejection of God no less than the Jews.  There were good/bad Jews as there are good/bad RC.  Your institution has always been filled with wickedness so much so that an exorcist has recently revealed that over 70,000 exorcisms have been done over the years in the RCC involving Popes, bishops, cardinals and priests.  I think most of them were done at the Vatican. 

I just wrote this:  http://kfc.joeuser.com/article/381427/Abraham_is_Not_Just_A_Father_To_The_Jews