leauki posts:

lula posts:

Spiritual X is CHRIST. With Christ, everything changed. Please read St.John 15:1-7. It's very powerful.

Read the highlighted again. Even our good JU talking bud, KFC, agrees.  

I UNDERSTAND and AGREE. Your One Lord God is my One Lord God and He revealed Biblical Judaism which formed the basis of Christianity.  

God promised salvation from the Jews. It doesn't get any better than that, but you have got to understand the spiritual sense of it all to appreciate it.

Lula posts:

Yes, you quoted Isaias. All of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled. Some in the time close to the prophecy, and others by Jesus, His birth, life, work, passion, death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. Some have multiple fullfillments such as Daniel's abomination of desolation.

I agree.

Our understanding and knowledge of God-revealed religion will continue to develop until the end of time.

G-d also promised us a land. You claim He broke that promise. I claim He wouldn't do that, ever.

So where is the rebuilt Jerusalem?

Yes. And that is why new religions develop.

But I'm afraid Jews are very conservative. Our view of G-d is still the same as 2500 years ago. We haven't changed.

iNFIDEL POSTS:

leauki posts:

Sacred Scripture and revealed (true) religion are about God and people. The development of Scripture and  biblical Judaism and Christianity occurred in human history.

Man has always had a religion taught by God. Adam was taught directly. And Adam handed on to his children the truth about God and the duty of worshipping Him. Abel offered sacrifice.  

The traditions and religious beliefs were transmitted by Adam's posterity, and over time songs, sagas, poetry, legends and law was added. After the remultipication of the human race fromNoe, men again began to forget God.

Conscience always dictated what was naturally right (natural law) and God gave revelations to various individuals such as the Patriarchs and this became known as the Patriarchial religion or period of pre-Mosaic unwritten law. The descendants passed down traditions and religious beliefs and teachings grom generation to generation. They were recorded during the reigns of David and Solomon. After the southern kingdom fell to the Babylonians, leaders of the Israelites began to focus more closely on the spiritual meaning of their identity as God's people.

 And then God gave us Moses and with him a clearer exposition of religious duties to be put into writing. This is known as the Old Covenant religion..(what I call Biblical Judaism).   After Moses, the lawgiver, God sent His prophets to explain the law and to predict the coming of the Messias.

Finally, God sent His own Son, the Christ, who filfilled these predictions and taught the perfect law of God and established the New and everlasting Covenant.

So we see here that God gave His holy religion to mankind gradually so that men could be prepared by more simple doctrines for still more noble truths. The relligion known by the Jews before Christ was therefore but imperfect, and prepatory. The religion of Christ was its perfect fulfillment  and the Jews should have recognized it and accepted it. Some did,but most did not and then Christ sent His Apostles to preach it to the Gentiles. CHRIST DID NOT THEREFORE ESTABLISH ANOTHER RELIGION. Christianity is the perfect development of the seed from which it grew.

Chrsit retained all the basic laws of religion and morality contained in the progressively revealed Jewish preparation, abolishing only the particular rites and ceremonies which were purely figurative and also the imperfections of the initial religion.

The Jews were God's chosen people until the coming of Christ and they could have been among His chosen people now  had they remained true to God. God did not change His attitude toward them; rather they changed their attitude to Him. They had been taught to look forward to the Redeemer. But when He came, they rejected Him becasue they wished Him to bring them temporal gifts i.e. physical peace, total well-being, victory over their physical enemies, NOT SPIRITUAL GIFTS. 

No, no, no Leauki, I claim that Almighty God already fulfilled His promise of a land and gave the Scriptural passages that prove it.

This is NOT true.  The RCC does not teach eternal security nor does it teach that one can know he has eternal life for sure.  To me that is not hope.  I do have hope because I believe that the salvation that I have gives me not only true security but I can KNOW that I have eternal life according to the word of God himself.  I plan on writing on this soon.  Stay tuned. 

It IS going to be on this earth. It will be a new earth but it will still be earth.  There is only one earth. 

"and I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...."  Rev 21:1

The Greek word for new is Kainos" and means new as to quality not origin.  It's the same word Paul used for the converted believer that they were new creatures.  They were still the same but new at the same time.  I'm still me but at my conversion I became a new person.  When Christ talked about the new wine the word is used and interpreted "fresh."  It's going to be a new earth not in origin but in quality.  A better quality earth because all the sin will be wiped out and it will be renewed just like we were at conversion when we accepted Christ for salvation. 

and that's how they get around certain things...it's very common.  People spiritualize scriptures they don't wish to take literally so they can make it say anything they want.  The Jews did this too Leauki when it came to Christ.  For instance, for years before Christ Isaiah 53 was thought to be a description of the coming Messiah until he came.  Then they changed it spiritualizing it to mean Israel as a nation because it fit too closely to the Christ who claimed to be the Messiah. 

now I agree with this because when the Messiah (Christ) comes back it will be so that every eye will see him.  It will be, as he said, like lightening from the east to the west (Matt 24). 

Really?  That's it?  So when did the lamb and the lion lie down in peace?  When did the lion eat straw?  When did Jerusalem lie in peace?  Not even close Lula.  There are many more prophecies concerning the second coming then there are the first.

Just like the first coming was a series of events...birth, life, miracles, teachings, death, burial and resurrection of Christ etc..so two will the second coming be a series of events.  That's what Revelation is ALL ABOUT.  But your church has told you a lie.  They have taught to backdate the scriptures as tho they have already happened.  You are belieivng a lie on purpose.  Peter called it being ignorant on purpose. 

Your post #207 makes no sense at all to the scripture that was posted.  It's a bunch of mumbling nonesense.  You did not directly address the scripture only gave your opinion (or the RCC's commentary on that scripture). 

Leauki you're absolutely right on this one and will be shared by Jew and Gentile alike because there will only be one God and we will all go up to Jerusalem to worship the true King when this happens. 

Isaias was fulfilled by the time of Herod's Temple finished in 10BC, Jerusalem was rebuilt (in time for the Messias to arrive just as the Prophets predicted He would).

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD and is now rebuilt.  

And we'll see whether it will be brought back into its original state by the Messiah or anyone.

No, NO, NO.  This is YOUR interpretation by ignoring the scriptures.  It's like you're skimming it but then saying oh it's already happened without even really looking at it. 

Read Isaiah 65 again.  I posted it already.  So I won't do it again.  It says they will build house and inhabit them and plant vineyards that will be all theirs.  This did not happen during the Roman occupation.  Everything was Rome's.  Rome owned Jerusalem and that's why the Zionists were so impatient to overthrow Rome.  This scripture has NOTHING to do with 70 A.D. or before.  It says in v19 there will be no more weeping and that Jerusalem will be a place of rejoicing.  When did this happen?  Israel has not been in possession of her own land since 586 B.C.  Even today they don't without everyone in the world telling them what to do.  They can't build or plant or do anything without permission or acceptance by the powers that be.   

It has NEVER happened since the Babylonian captivity in 586 B.C.  This is ALL Future.  When did the wolf and lamb lie down together?  It's all part of that prophecy saying there will one day be total peace so much so that even the animal kingdom will be involved.  It will be the Garden of Eden restored.  One day in the future. 

In 66:12-14 it continues to say:

Behold I will extend peace to her like a river and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream then shall you suck you shall be borne upon her sides and be dandled upon her knees. As one whom his mother comfors so will I comfort you and you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.  When you see this your heart shall rejoice and your bones shall flourish like an herb; and the hand of the Lord shhall be known toward his servants and his indignation toward his enemies. 

This is a description of the millennial age that you don't believe in Lula.  YOu're saying this has already come about since Isaiah wrote this?  When?  70 AD?  Does this sound like 70 A.D. or before to you?   There is NO history that can back this scripture and many more up Lula.  Your saying so doesn't make it so. 

kfc posts:

Yes, there is only one earth and what does  2St.Peter 3:9-14 say about it?  

9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance. 10 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up.

11 Seeing then that all these things are to be dissolved, what manner of people ought you to be in holy conversation and godliness? 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of the Lord, by which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with the burning heat? 13 But we look for new heavens and a new earth according to his promises, in which justice dwelleth. 14 Wherefore, dearly beloved, waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found before him unspotted and blameless in peace.

Rev. 21:1 says the first earth was passed away. (so, if the first earth has passed away, that indicative of the new heavens and new earth. Put that together with 2St.Peter and it's clear that Isaias' peace is not going to be on this earth. This earth is gone, done away with at the end of the world.

Isaias' messianic peace is presented as one of the possessions of Christians in the present world and time. The flourishing condition of the Church is described as peace Acts. 9:31 was then, is now and will be until  the end of the world when Christ comes again in glory.

Earth, time, history will end and after the Final Judgment, the Messianic age will have triumpthed and paradisaic harmony of Is. 11:6 and 65:25 will be restored in the eternal new heavens and the new earth.

Again, you are thinking in the physical... the world, with Jerusalem and Rome and everything else will be burnt to smithereens at the end of the world. Then comes the General Judgment and for those whose name is in the Book of LIfe get passed through the pearly gates of eternal heavenly life in the eternal city, the New Jerusalem.

lula posts:

 [quote]  Leauki posts: So where is the rebuilt Jerusalem?[/quot

lula posts:

kfc posts:

KFC,

First, mine was a direct answer to Leauki's question, "So where is the rebuilt Jerusalem?"

Second, please note the highlighted...where I said some have multiple fulfillments...Isaias has 66 chapters...and parts of Isaias have already been fulfilled. I agree with you that Is. 65 points to the future...I beleive it points to the Eternal New Jersualem in the new heavens and the new earth.

I agree. Is. 65 is future...not some "millennial age" but rather eternal future...after the General Judgment, paradisiac peace will be restored like the original in the Garden of Paradise..with new heavens and new earth.

Isaias 65 is NOT a description of any "millennial age" but rather an eternal state as I have already described. You're saying Is. 65 is a description of the future millennial age is mouthing Dispensationalist PreMillennialism or Millenarianism which is a supposed future thousand year reign of Christ on this present earth. It's pure fable fabricated on misinterpretation of Scripture.

Lula, you said the above first and then you said...

????? Am I missing something? 

did you not read my response in #215?  I gave you the definition for new that is used here in the Greek.  It's not new in origin. 

It's like when we come to Christ ...our old nature is passed away and we receive a new nature.  I'm still me though.  I'm not another person.  I'm a new creature in Christ.  It's the same word used here for "new earth." 

It's like you're totally ignoring what I'm saying and just continuing on like I never said a thing. 

When the earth was destroyed by flood we had a new earth then too.  But it wasn't a new (origin) earth in the sense you're saying.   The next time will be by fire.  He will cleanse the earth by fire and it will be destroyed.  It will be a new earth.  All the sin will be wiped away. 

Someday we will receive new bodies too.  But we will somehow be able to recognize each other.  Jesus received a new body right?  The same with us.  His body was not in the grave anymore.   God used the old body and restored it somehow.  Jesus now has a new body like we will have.  That's what he will do with the earth. 

Pardon me if I'm being confusing here.  I'll try again.

I think that all of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled but some have multiple fulfillments that will occur in the future.  Isaias' Messianic prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ (one fulfillment) who established His Messianic kingdom, the Church.(another fulfillment) and that Messianic Kingdom will reach perfection in Christ in eternity (another fulfillment albeit in the future).

His Kingdom which is presently in "exodus" until the end of the world is a limited reality of what it is to become in eternity. This is where Is. 65 comes in with more details about the Messianic kingdom of God in the new heavens and the new earth. (future fulfillment).

lula posts 219

I'll expand on this using 2St.Peter 3:13 and Rev. 21:1.  At the end of time the Messianic Kingdom of God will come into its fullness. After the universal Judgment, the righteous will reign forever with Christ glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed. The Church will receive her perfection in the glory of heaven. This is when the universe too will be perfectly es-established IN Christ. This mysterious renewal of humanity, the earth and the universe is called "new heavens and a new earth."  It will be the definitive of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in Christ". Eph. 1:10.

In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have His dwelling among men. This is when there will be no more tears, no more death, no mourning, crying, pain, for all these former things have passed away.

St.Irenaeus sermon on The Apoc. 21:4, writes the visible universe then is itself destined to be transformed "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, (are you reading this Leauki?), facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ."

Oh yes, right, the new, improved short eternity.

Try promising your children a toy for Christmas and then take it away a day later and tell them that you fullfilled your promise since they had the toy for a while.