KFC posts:

The Millennium is now....the time is now for the Jews to convert like St. Paul did and to witness to their fellow unbelieving Jews. There is no 1,000 year earthly reign of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The four last things are death, judgment, Heaven or Hell.

So, no KFC. You're erroneously forcing these passages to fit the ideas of Rapturists, Dispensationalists, Millenialists, etc.

By the time these 2 passages take place, the Millennial Church age...the time of grace.... salvation opportunity time is over. It's also over for the earth and all earthly things, history and time. These 2 passages refer to the Last Day, Christ's Second Coming in majesty and glory for the Final Judgment....the Kingdom of God has entered the eternal heavenly New Jerusalem.

How do we know it's over for all mankind, the earth and universe? You quoted St.Matt. 24:30-31. But verse 29 is "But immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will give its light no more, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

I disagree.

The Jews have gone through a lot, ESPECIALLY at the hands of the Roman Empire and its Church.

Whatever Jesus was, there was a reason why he was born a Jew.

If Jews were not special in G-d's eyes, how do you explain Jewish survival over the millennia? How do you explain the miracle of Israel's renewed independence? How do you explain the fact that one people in the Middle-East still lives a bronze-age religion? How do you explain the fact that people like KFC feel a duty to support a people from the other side of the world, despite the fact that it would be easier and more politically correct to support those who want to kill them? How do you explain why so many people want to kill the Jews?

How do you explain the fact that terrorists attacking an Indian city take the time to attack a Jewish cultural centre? How do you explain the fact that Jews are news, despite the small size of the Jewish people and the Jewish state? How do you explain the fact that of all the peoples in the Middle-East only the Jews managed to avert being slaughtered by the big powers (the Arabs and Turkey)?

Yes, a lot of it has to do with technology and bravery, but where did Jews get the talents required to create technology and be brave?

The Israeli soldier who gives his life to protect a child is influenced by the same type of power as the terrorist who tries to blow up a kindergarden. It's just two different sources (and almost makes me people in a devil).

But despite all the horrors that other peoples made the Jews go through, Israel is still alive.

In the mean time the Roman Empire, after it became (Roman) Christian, fell apart. In fact the western half fell even faster.

To me this looks like G-d is behind the small, by itself insignificant people.

To you it must look like you cannot explain why the people you believe G-d abandoned still thrive, whereas G-d's Holy Church appears to be a band of child abusers and criminals.

You are looking for G-d? Don't ask a priest who rapes little boys or the organisation that protects him. Ask Shevet Achim, Christians and Jews who organise heart surgery for children from countries neighbouring Israel.

Don't look for advice from rapists in Rome, look for advice from doctors in Jerusalem.

But the idea that G-d is done with Israel is just a sad excuse for anti-Semitism.

What do you think Christianity is about? Raping children and praying for the death of all Jews or helping children and praying for Israel's continued success? It's up to you what you want to believe.

ula posts:

leauki posts:

Leauki,

I'd expect that kind of defense from you had I said "the Jews are no more privileged than anyone else in the world" and left it at that,  But I did not. There is a second part to my sentence which frames a very specific point I am making to KFC.

Furthermore, my statement is a summation of the 3 that come before it.  

I'm speaking of the Jews in a theological sense and although you may not understand, my saying, "even if most of them are long dead before this supposedly takes place" indicates my charity and love of Jews.

There are no "Jews in a theological sense".

I think your "charity and love of Jews" is well-known.

I don't think I can remember a single posting or comment of yours where you defended Jews (or even a Jew) against non-Jews (or even non-Christians). In everything you write, Jews were always wrong, criminal, unbelieving, evil, wicked, and lost (and replaced by Rome).

There was never a kind word for Israel, the land or the people, and when it comes to the Jewish religion you misrepresent the religion and sometimes deny its existence.

Love of Jews? If this is your idea of love, I wouldn't want to be your friend.

You might be right or wrong, it doesn't matter, but "love of Jews" is not a feature of your position.

lula posts:

leauki posts:

OK, saying this shows you don't understand.   

But let's continue.

Believe it or not, our human destiny is eternal.  This is where the theological sense comes in for Jews, Catholics, non-Catholics, non-believers...in other words for all people since Adam.

Death is the universal, natural and inevitable end for all of us and our eternal destiny is set forth in  "the last things",  Death, particular Judgment, Heaven or Hell.     

The discussion has been focused on Redemption, Salvation and the Endtimes. And we know from Almighty God's revelation through the Sacred Scriptures (OT and NT), the Jews figure in through the Coming of the Messias Christ. So, it can't be denied the Jews and their holy religion, Biblical Judaism, are forever linked to Christ and His holy religion, Christianity.

Christ redeemed all mankind and made possible the salvation of many (including the Jews, Leauki).  As opposed to KFC, my point is the Millennium time of our salvation is NOW and will continue until Christ comes again. But in the meantime, death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.  

If a Jew becomes a Catholic does he still remain a Jew is like asking if a Mohammedan becomes a Jew, does he still remain a Mohammedan? If being a Jew  means living the Mosaic way of life, the answer is no. Yet, there is a difference between a follower of Mohammed becoming a Jew and a follower of Moses becoming a Catholic. One repudiates Mohammed as his spiritual leader, while the other continues in the faith of Abraham, in his love of Moses and adherance to many of his teachings, pluse the spiritual guidance of Christ. While the convert from the Synagaogue to the Chruch is no longer a Jew in the religious sense of the term, he continues as a Catholic, in his love of the faith of the ancient fathers of old in Israel, seeing in Catholic principles and practices Judaism full-blossomed.   

Actually, it merely shows that you and I disagree.

Let's.

Is that "eternal" in the long sense or "eternal" in the short sense?

I.e. is this "eternal" like the land of Israel being the homeland of the people of Israel or is this some other kind of eternal?

Grand.

I deny it.

Obviously it can be denied.

Judaism says nothing about Jesus, it merely predicted a person like him, as did Zoroastrianism. Whether that makes the two religions "forever linked" to "Christ" or any of the other Messiah candidates is subject to belief. I don't believe it.

 Too complicated...

If a Jew becomes a Catholic he remains a Jew, just like an Italian or German who becomes a Catholic remains an Italian or German. If a Jew becomes an atheist, he also remains a Jew.

If a Mohammedan becomes a Jew, he will seize to be a Mohammedan because becoming part of the Jewish people requires a ritual belief in the Jewish religion (or the Samaritan or Karaite religion as those conversions are also accepted). But if a born Jew (or the same converted Jew) becomes a Mohammedan, he will remain a Jew.

No, there is no such difference between a follower of Mohammed becoming a Jew and a follower of Moses becoming a Catholic.

And no, Catholic principles have nothing to do with Judaism.

And no, being a Jew does not mean living the Mosaic way of life (although it should).

If a follower of Moses, a religious Jew or gentile believing in the Torah, becomes a Catholic, his faith changes. He starts believing in a god who has walked the earth and a Messiah who has already arrived. Judaism does not believe in those things.

A follower of Mohammed can become a (religious) Jew by conversion to Judaism and a change in his beliefs. He will not believe that Mohammed and Jesus were prophets any more and he will not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. But the core belief in the one G-d will not change because Islam and Judaism have the same idea of what G-d is (i.e. one, no Trinity, no son etc.).

I believe Mel Brooks converted to Catholicism (although I am not sure), but he remained a Jew.

Woody Allen is an atheist but remains a Jew.

Many Zionists were and are atheists but they remain Jews.

One of my best friends in Israel is an avowed atheist who would deny the existence of G-d any day yet he is a proud Jew and wears a necklace with the Shield of David and he would never ever denounce his heritage or deny King David's legitimacy as the king of Israel in Biblical times.

You are talking about the modern concept of multi-ethnic religions, a concept that doesn't exist in bronze age religions like Judaism. That's why and I constantly misunderstand each other. I follow a bronze age tribal religion, you follow a modern multi-national religion.

There is nothing wrong with you following whatever religion you want. But it NEVER gives you the right to redefine what other religions are about or what a Jew is.

A Jew is, in the strictest sense, a member of the tribe of Judah, in the wider sense a descendant of the tribes of Judaea, and in the widest sense a member of the people of Israel (although this last usage is technically incorrect).

The definition does NOT include a belief in a god or gods or holy books or anything like that.

A Jew who has never heard of the Torah is still a Jew. Just like an German who has never read any German legends or believed in any German gods is still a German.

Religious Jew -> Christian

- has to accept Jesus as Messiah

- has to accept Jesus as G-d and son of G-d

- has to accept the "Holy Trinity"

- has to accept the truth of the "New Testament"

- remains Jewish, like Petrus

Mohammedan -> Christian

- retains Jesus as Messiah

- has to accept Jesus as G-d and son of G-d

- has to accept the "Holy Trinity"

- has to deny the truth of the Quran

Mohammedan -> Religious Jew

- keeps his view of G-d

- has to deny Jesus as the Messiah

- has to deny Mohammed as a prophet in the Jewish sense

- has to deny as truth the "New Testament" and the Quran

Religious Jew -> Mohammedan

- keeps his view of G-d

- accepts Jesus as the Messiah

- accept Mohammed as a prophet in the Islamic sense

- accepts the truth of the "New Testament" and the Quran

- remains Jewish, like Safiyyah

All this assumes a non-organised Christianity bowing to no man and classical Islam.

My teacher, Marv is a Jew.  He's also a Christian.  He loves to teach us his Jewish heritage.  He never stopped becoming a Jew when he became a Christian.  He's a Messianic Jew.  Plain and simple.  It's not complicated.   He travels all over the world and is very sought out especially for the Passover Seder every year as he puts those on to show us what each thing represented and how it all pointed to the Messiah and how the Jews had Christ right in their commeration the whole time. 

He goes to Israel twice-three times a year and has done so every single year for 39 years.  I'm hoping to go with him in September.  If anyone knows anything about the Jewish Faith and Israel it's Marv.   I'd love Leauki to hear his CD on "Israel Under Seige"  (you can get this from his site Leauki as well as a free year of  his magazine"Zion's Fire." )   Gary Cohen, a frequent writer in the magazine is probably the most intelligent speaker on Hebrew/Israel that I've ever heard of or met.  We get him as a substitute when Marv has a speaking engagment somewhere else.   He's a language guy, proficient in many languages.  Leauki you would love it.  On the CD Marv goes thru the whole history of Israel going all the way back to biblical times right up to the present. He spends alot of time during WWI and WWII.   The miraculous story behind the birth of the Nation Israel both then and now is more than fascinating and how it lines up with scripture is amazing. 

You can be a Jew and a Christian at the same time.  As a Chistian Jew you recognize that the Torah and writings of the Prophets (the OT to us) was all about the Messiah that came.  When He came, He was indeed the Messiah that Moses and Isaiah and the rest were anticipating. He proved it.   The problem was the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day did all they could to deny this and fought against it.  They turned many away painting Christ as nothing more than a lunatic.  Some believed in Christ some didn't.  The nation as a whole because of the leadership did not accept Christ as the anticipated Messiah.  Jesus didn't come for the leaders anyhow.  He came for the lowly.  He came to those who had ears to hear and eyes to see.  Today that is still going on in the movement we call the Messianic Jewish movement. 

And today the religious mucky mucks whether they be of "Christian" persuasion or Jewish are still fighting against Christ.  Nothing different; nothing new under the sun.  They are still doing alot of damage in NOT drawing people closer to God.  Instead they are driving people away with their hypocrisy and malice. 

Exactly.

And if he can manage to teach some Judaism to Christians, more power to him! (I don't think teaching some Christianity to Jews can hurt either. I am all for teaching.)

I really don't know where the big problem is.

70 years ago the very people who created the Vatican told us that Jews are a distinct "race". And today, apparently, Jews have lost the right to be a people.

But if you read the Bible you will notice that it often speaks of a "people of Israel". It doesn't speak of a religion or sect or a Church waiting to become Roman, it simply speaks of the people of Israel and its connection to the land of Israel and the god of Israel.

I agree.

leauki posts:

And picking up from there, we learn in St.Luke 19: 28-44 that as Jesus was riding into Jerusalem being greeted with the prophetic words referred to the enthronment of the Messias, Psalm 118:26, "Blessed is He who enters in the name of the Lord", He looked over the city and wept for Jerusalem. He explains why He is weeping by prophecying the destruction of Jerusalem which was fulfilled in 70AD when Titus razed the city and the Temple was destroyed.  

"And when He drew near and saw the city He wept over it, saying, "would that even today you knew the things that make for peace! But now they are hid from your eyes. For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side. And dash you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another in you, becasue you did not know the time of your visitation."

70AD was punishment for the Jews and Jerusalem failure to recognize the time of its visitation, that is, for closing its gates to the salvific coming of the Redeemer. Jesus loved the Jews with a special love, and they were the first to whom the Gospel was preached, and to themspecially He directed His ministry. He showed by His word and by His miracles that He was the Son of God and the Messias foretold in the Scriptures. But the Jews for the most part failed to appreciate the grace the Lord was offering them and their leaders led them to the extreme of calling for Jesus to be crucified. The chief priests, the heads of the Jewish nation and the official guardians and exponents of the Jewish religion told Pilate, "We (the Jewish people...the chosen people of God) have no king but Caesar". At that moment, the chosen people of God reject what they were chosen for. They officially merged their nation into the pagan Roman Empire. After that as Pilate washed his hands before the people, they answered, "His blood be upon us and upon our children!" St.Matt. 27:24-25.   

Leauki's post 276 testifies that the debate over who the "Jews" are never ends.

As to who the Jews are, I'd say Christ is the dividing line. The Jews define themselves in encounters with Christ in St.John's Gospel 5 and 8 where the issue of lineage and patrimony is disputed.  When Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, it was decision time. Some Jews accepted Christ and are known as Christians. Those Jews who reject CHrist are still waiting for the Messias on their terms.

So Marv is a Jew, a Christian and a Messianic Jew.

Hmmm...maybe you can get his help in answering my questions...

...

Lula,

For the last time, the Christian "New Testament" does NOT define Judaism.

No, it testifies that the debate has ended thousands of years ago. The people of Israel are the only people defined by a book recognised as G-d's word by the vast majority of the earth's population (namely Christians and Jews and Muslims).

The "debate" you are talking about is some people's inability to accept that truth.

You don't even have to believe in G-d or the Bible to accept that truth. Even without belief the Bible remains an ancient text that clearly tells the story of a nation.

[

Ha, that too!

No, it shows only that.

You have so little knowledge of Judaism that it is preposterous for you to claim that my disagreeing with you shows that I don't understand.

I recommend you finally sit down and learn what Judaism actually is. Read a few books. Start with the Bible (NOT a commentary on the Bible, but the Bible, and I mean the "Old Testament" because the "New Testament" isn't about Judaism).