quote]Lula,

For the last time, the Christian "New Testament" does NOT define Judaism.[/quote]

Why? Because you (and other revolutionary Jews who refuse to accept Christ as the Messias) say it doesn't?  

The Scriptures show that Christ intended the perfect development of the Mosaic religion (Christianity..Catholicism) to be distinct from the religion of the Synagaogue which has ended. Christ said, I will build My Chruch at the time the Synagague was already established. Christ prescribed new doctrines, new modes of worship, and a new form of authority. He even predicted to His Apostles, in the synagogue you shall be beaten." St.Mark 13:9. The intended disctinction of His Chruch from the prefigurative Synagague is most clear.

CHRIST WAS FULLY AWARE OF THE PROPHECY OF ISAIAS 2:2, THAT ALL NATIONS WOULD BE CALLED TO HIS CHURCH. He did intend that His doctrines should be preached to the Jews first and only afterwards to the Gentiles and for this reason He told His disciples not to preach it to the time reserved to the Jews. But in St.Matt. 16:19, Christ Himself tell sthe Apostles to go, teach all nations. That's what is happening now.

The New Testament is the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ and it does indeed define Judaism.  

The Jews were God's first chosen people until the coming of Christ and they could/can be among His chosen people now had they remained true to God's will. Almighty God is faithful and did not change His attitude toward them. In Genesis, Almighty God promised a Redeemer that would come and save them...and all through the Book that you reference above, the Jews had been taught to look for Him (and we know a remnant of 7,000 Jews did). But when He came, the revolutionary Jews rejected Him (as you do now with the same revolutionary spirit) becasue they wished Him to bring temporal things, not spiritual gifts to save their eternal souls.

(Again, this is speaking of Jews in the theological sense).

Why didn't/don't/won't the Jews accept Christ? We know that many individual Jews did, but as a race the Jews did not. You refuse to believe the infallible New Testament Scriptures....well, then read Jewish history and you'll find it wasn't becasue Christ didn't sufficiently prove His mission, but becasue the Jewish leaders and teachers had lost the true religious spirit, had selfishly transferred their affections from God and His prophets to a love of their own high places, and had substituted the idea of a magnificant temporal ruler for the spiritual Savior. They wanted deliverance from tyranny of the Romans and help to trample them. Christ, the suffering and dying Christ, did not/does not fit in with their earthly notions and ambitions, and that's why the leaders then and revolutionary Jews today reject Him.

Then the majority of the people depended upon the Scribes and Pharisees for religious direction, and the majority of Jewish people today depend upon leaders of the same revolutionary spirit found in Rabbinical Talmudic Judaism.

The modern Jew take Judaism for granted without inquiring deeply into the question.

Because, obviously, it was written when Judaism already existed.

It has nothing to do with a "refusal" to accept "Christ" as the Messias.

And I am not revolutionary. The term for those who refuse to change is "stubborn", if you will.

And here we go again. Iasaias 2:2 says nothing about a "church". There isn't even a "calling".

Says the non-Jew.

Fact is that Judaism as a religion already existed long before Jesus' birth. What Jesus taught is good and might be true. But even if it is G-d's truth, it does NOT define Judaism, which exists and existed independently of Jesus of Nazareth.

G-d's choice was eternal and was made with the knowledge that the people of Israel will not always be faithful.

And time and time again the rest of the world proves to us that Jews indeed remain the chosen people. Open a news paper. Do you see any other nation as often the centre of everyone's attention relative to numbers?

I just typed "Jews", "Germans", and "Arabs" into Google, just to count the hits.

Jews: About 39,600,000 results

Germans: About 22,300,000 results

Arabs: About 12,300,000 results

I would have used other examples, but those are the ones with only one common English word to describe the individuals ("Frenchmen" only gives 2,890,000 results).

Weird, isn't it?

How would a people of 15 million be discussed so often when other peoples numbering 80 million and more are discussed so rarely, in comparison?

Whatever effect G-d's choice had on human choices, it appears that English-speaking humans chose Jews TEN TIMES MORE often than Germans in conversation and articles.

There are no "Jews in the theological sense".

That's easy. He didn't do what the Messiah was supposed to do and he cannot be G-d because Jews are not allowed to pray to a man. (If Jesus is both, Jews cannot legally pray to him.)

Yes. It's true. But bronze age Jews also took their religion for granted without inquiring deeply.

It's called faith.

Jews keep believing now what they believed then, regardless of reasons not to believe it. You found that out correctly.

Judaism was granted.

By G-d.

And while Islam and Christianity have converted almost any nation they ever met or attacked, the people of Israel stuck to their own faith.

You CANNOT replace what G-d has already willed.

leauki posts:

Regarding the highlighted....BINGO! And the Judaism which already existed long before Jesus' birth is NOT Rabbinic Talmudic Judaism which was devised in 90AD by revolutionary Jews who rejected Christ and everything concerning Christianity.

The word "exists" here is not correct.  

The point is that Judaism, the Judaism that already existed long before Jesus' birth, is the Judaism recorded in the OT, which is God's revealed, Aaronic High priestly sacrificial religion, is non-existent having been translated by the Messias instituted predicted priesthood and Sacrifice of a higher order, as seen in the New Covenant House of God, the Catholic Church.

It is therefore as unreasonable to expect the Judaism of the pre-Christian ages exists in the world today.

The only Judaism that God brought into being through Moses and Aaron, that Jews can embrace today is the Judaism full-blossomed into Catholic Christianity. Biblical Judaism was the caterpillar that evolved into the butterfly of Catholicism.  

leauki posts:

My, my, here you are speaking of Jews in a theological sense.

Now, we are getting somewhere.....Let's continue by going back to Isaias.

I wrote:

to which you replied:

Oh yes, the prophet Isaias chapter 2: 2-4 certainly predicted that all nations shall flow to the House of the Lord...in other word's, Christ's New Covenant Church. 

Isaias 2:2-4 "And in the last days, the mountain of the House of the Lord shall be prepared on the top of mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it. And many poeple shall go and say, Come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and to the Hous of the God of Jacob; ANd He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For the law will come forth from Sion, amd the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge the Gentiles and rebuke many people."  

In Scripture, "In the last days" is the whole time of the New Covenant, the time from Christ's First Coming till the end of the world because no other time shall come after it but only eternity.  

So, from the time of Christ until He Comes again in Judgment on the Last Day, all nations shall flow into the CC. 

"on the top of mountains" shows the perpetual visibility of Christ's Church, for a mountian on top of a mountain cannot be hid."

Christ came and He established the religion of God, Christianity. As opposed to the one chosen people of the Jews, all nations will be represented amongst its members. And they will learn from His Chruch the ways of God and will walk in His path under its guidance. This promised New Covenant religion will originate in Jerusalem. Now, the NT shows Christ fulfilled this OT prophecy of Isaias. In St.Matt. 16:18, Christ says, "I will build My Church" upon Cephas, Peter. In 28:20, He prescribed its doctrines and commissioned it to go forth from Jerusalem teaching to observe all things I have commanded you. In 28:18, He gives His Church His authority, "Amen, I say to you whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven...." In the preceeding verse, He gives the Church judicial power, "If a man will not hear the Chruch, let him be as the heathen."

And He sends that Chruch no longer to the Jews only, but to the Gentiles also, saying, "teach all nations."   His Chruch must remain one Chruch for it is to be "one fold under one shepherd". It is to last with the constitution He gave it until the end of the world and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. Behold, I am with you all days until the consummation of the world.

Leauki, all this obviously indicates a very definite religion and a very definite Church.  

To the smallest detail, the OT prophets foretold the true Messias, but many Jews would not listen.

Instead, they prefer to listen to Maimonides who established the criteria whereby the Jews could identify the Messias.  He wrote, "IF there arises a king from the house of David, versed in Torah (who) performs the commandments like David his ancester...and wages a war of God, it is assumed he is the Messiah. If he successfully does this and builds the Temple in its proper place and gathers the dispersed of Israel, behold he is certainly the Messiah."

Well, the true Messias Christ came to deliver Israel but instead of being a strong and powerful warrior king, the Messias endured a shameful death. No way would a suffering Messias do and so from there on, the revolutionary Jews define themselves by their rejection of Christ. This path of rejecting Christ brought on a path of revolutionary activity that brought woe to them immediately within their own generation exactly as the Son of man, the Christ predicted at His trial.....in 70AD. And from then on, it has been a Jewish revolutionary path of woe ever since.  

Maimonide's political warrior king definition of the Messias became axiomatic. If the claimant didn't fulfill certain political and revolutionary criteria, he was ipso facto, not the Messias. How many times have we heard that from you?

You have to be kidding me!  Like Leauki said Lula...you don't understand.  You just don't.  You play like you do but you really don't have a clue.  God wasn't talking with a Gentile.  He was talking to a Jewish Prophet who was writing about his own people. 

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RCC!   Remember you will be held accountable for your false teaching. 

This same vision is found with small variations in Micah 4:1-3 which concludes with every man sitting under his fruit trees in peace (4:4).  The RCC has nothing to do with peace at all... EVER! Look at the organization.  It's ANYTHING BUT  peaceful.   Joel 3:10 contains the same language with Isaiah and Micah. 

As in Micah this is a description of the millennial kingdom. You say it's now (how can that be?)  and I say it's future when the King of Peace (Jesus) comes back.  Which makes more sense?

 God's government (mountain) will be established over all the kingdoms of this world. Gentiles (nations) and Jews (people) will do the will of God; justice and peace will reign.  The two will come together as one.  Jews and Gentiles.  Your way is to make all the Jews Roman Catholics to be accepted.  Absurd! 

Temple and house represent the same HEBREW word (bet) so the NIV's "temple" in v2 is the interpretation

The phrase "the house of the God of Jacob" (should be your first clue) underlines the special relationship of the true God with historical Israel while "Zion"-Jerusalem" represents divinely ordained worship and divinely authorized government.  So this passage weds together normal OT particularism with the vision of universal worship and peace with in diff forms recurs often in Isaiah. 

I noticed you didn't include this part above in your quote even though you called it  verse 2-4????:

"They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.  Nation will not take up sword against nation nor will they train for war anymore."   the end of verse 4.

How come you didn't put this in?  Is it not in YOUR bible?  Or did you just not put it because it doesn't fit?

kfc posts:

My mistake. I typed the passage in haste and omitting the end of verse 4 was just an oversight.

kfc posts: 

And this is predictable since you reject the Church and believe the utterly false fable of Millenarianism. 

Accept it or not, here, Isaias was prophecying that in the last days, God's New Covenant Church  would be prepared....the one founded by Our Lord in 33AD which the New Testament confirms. Christ fulfilled Isaias' prophecy when He established the New Law (Covenant) in His Blood and founded His Church. Of this Church, the Church of all nations, Christ said, You are the light of the world. A city situated on a mountain cannot be hid." St.Matt. 5:14-15.

It's no small thing that Isaias 2:2 begins, "And in the last days..."  

To an ancient Israelite, history fit into 3 ages. First there was the period before Moses and the Law...Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph lived during this age.

The 2nd was the time of the Law...the years from Moses until the Messias' coming. Most of the OT fits into this second age. It includes Moses and all of the major and minor prophets.

The 3rd and final age expected by the Jews was the Messianic age. The promise of a future Messianic king or Anointed One, can be traced all through the OT starting in Genesis.  The promise and that hope of Christ is the heart and soul of Biblical Judaism.

The Advent of the Messias (Christ's First Coming) signaled the start of the last age. Since it's the final stage of salvation, it's called "the last days."

In Hebrews 1:1-2 St. Paul says, "God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days, He has spoken to us by a Son." Later, in 9:26, we read that Christ "has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

IN JERUSALEM, on the day of Pentecost, St. Peter quoted from the prophet Joel saying that he and the multitude of listeners were in the last days...he said this becasue the Messias had come and the last days were upon them. Both St.Paul and St.John shared this view. 2Tim 3:1 and 1John 2:18. And let's not forget St.Jude 1:18, "You must remember beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; they said to you, In the last time there will be scoffers....."  

So the first part of Isaias describes the sins of the people and the disastrous situation in Judah. Then comes Is. 2:1-4 which we are discussing. Isaias gives the people a glimmer of hope..a messianic vision which shows that salvation of all nations centers on Sion, the mountain of the Lord, that is Jerusalem. Note the part highlighted above in blue and the significance of Jerusalem where the New Covenant Church began.  Read in Acts. 1:6-9..Just before Our Lord ascended into Heaven, the Apostles question Him about restoring the kingdom of Israel. which shows they are still thinking in terms of an earthly resoration of the Davidic dynasty. For them eschatological hope in the kingdom extended no further than expectation of world-embracing Jewish hedgmony.

Our Lord tells them they need the help of the Holy Spirit to be able to grasp the teaching. We know that help comes at Pentecost. verse 8, "But you shall receive the power when the HS has come upon you, and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

So the growth of the Church begins in Jerusalem and will spread to all nations to the end of the earth. This is the geographical structure of St.Luke's account as well. Jerusalem was the destination point of Our Lord's public life (which began in Galilee) and here it is the departure point.

Is. verse 3, is prefaced by "in the last day"..."for the law will come from Sion..." This is the New Law, KFC...it's the New Covenent in Christ's Blood which was established at the Last Supper IN JERUSALEM.  1Cor. 11: 24-26, "...This is My Body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of Me. In the same way also the cup, after supper saying, "This cup is the New Covenant in My blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes."

In the prophets, the expression "in the last days', refers to the messianic era Mic. 4:1 which brings to an end the long period of waiting for the promised Redeemer and marks the start of the Kingdom of God which will last forever. Dan. 7:14; 27; St. Luke 1:33. the fullness of time began with the coming of Christ and will reach its zenith with His return in majesty and glory for the Last Judgment. The last days, in the NT perspective, ciovers the entire period of the Christian era, it's the Church age. This is the earthly phase or stage of the Kingdom of God and is characterized by the presence of the good and the bad, side by side St. Matt. 13:47-48 and the cockle sown among the wheat. 13:24. 

Yes the first phase of the Millennial kingdom is now. "The last days" is the Millennial or Church age and the Church Christ established on earth is the Millennial Kingdom of God which will last forever.  

Her mission as per St.Matt. 28:16-20 is to help save souls by bringing the truth of Christ to all nations. the Gospel will be preached and salvation will be available to "all Isreal in the wake of the full number of Gentilles" until the end of the world and the very day that Christ returns. But before He returns there is going to be a final assault of evil and the Chruch will not be spared; it's going to be so intense that many may lose (apostasize)their faith.

Just as the AC and his forces "surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city, fire came down from Heaven and consumed them." Apocl 20:9. The victory will be won at the glorious appearance of Christ. "The lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and destroy him by His appearing and His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8.

The Resurrestion will follow. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." 1Cor. 15:12-22. Everyone's soul is reunited with their body and everyone (including Christians) will face the final (great white throne )Judgment. This is when the Master rewards the servants in accordance with his works and faith and the wicked will join the demons in Hell forever.

On the other side of the Final Judgment stands eternity. Time, history, along with the old Heavens and earth has been destroyed. The righteous in the Kingdom of God now have glorified bodies and will reign forever with Christ glorified in body and soul....we will be in the presence of God forever in the new heavens and the new earth, the Heavenly city of New Jerusalem.  

That's it KFC...no time, no place, no Scripture which teaches a future 1,000 year reign of Christ on this present earth. There is no Scripture which views the Church age as nothing more than a "parenthesis" in the work of Almighty God.

The literal interpretation of Apoc. 20, a future millennial kingdom of earth where Christ after He appears for His Second coming will reign in Jerusalem for 1,000 years was officially rejected by the Chruch under the reign of Pope Pius XII as a system of interpretation that "cannot be taught safely."

So back to you...remember you will be held accountable for your false teaching.

Again, rejecting a revolution is not a revolutionary act.

Jews continued living their old religion.

Everybody listened.

That's why we remain convinced that the Messiah will have to do certain things.

Yes. The scholar Maimonides reminded us to wait for the Messiah as foretold in the Tanakh.

I really don't care if the Messiah suffers. I only care whether he will do what prophecy said he would do.

It's Jewish belief, so you will hear it a lot.

The Messiah is an annointed king.

The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king is indeed axiomatic and has been for almost 3000 years.

That's why king Cyrus was called a messiah. He was a warrior king.

I don't see why a prophecy becomes invalid just because Maimonides believed in it.

No. Leauki...after 70AD,  it was impossible for Jews to continue to "live their old religion."

"living the old religion (Biblical Judaism) required 3 holy things...High priests. Temple Altar, Torah prescribed sacrifices in that Temple. From 70AD, these are of the historic past.

Furthermore, the Jewish Encyclopedia rightly declares, that "the official genealogies disappeared with the destruction of the Temple" that this was "deplored as a calamity" vol 5, page. 597, that "it is extremely rare to find a Jewish family that even claims to trace its ancestry further back than the 16th century. vol 9 page 517.

Do you (and others) imagine that Almighty God who provided our holy forebears in Israel with an authoritative priesthood and sacrificial means of honoring Him, and obtaining forgiveness of sin, left man without such a guidance and means of atonement after the end came of those Torah-recorded blessings?

A new, universal priesthood of a higher order was instituted who offers Sacrifice on Altars all over the world (in all nations) as foretold in the OT (Jewish) Scriptures. That priesthood of God, that Sacrifice, those Altars, are found in the Catholic Church, the one and only visible, spiritual society that functions by the will of ALmighty God.

Just as it did St. Peter and Paul and all the rest throughout 2,000 years through today, it is bellief in the faith of the fathers of ancient Israel that leads Jews into the CC.  That Old testament faith fulfilled its glorious mission in and through the birth of the Son of David, Jesus Christ. He caused the Jewish acorn to blossom forth into the gloriious Oak, known as the Catholic Church, the Millennial Kingdom of God,

I pray that all Jews will be blest by being grafted onto that Oak.   

Man, you are sooooooo stubborn.

Read what Moses commanded just before he died...Deut. 18:15. "Everybody listened", my eye!!! (an old saying of my mother! ).

Oh, my if the Jews had actually listened to the PROPHET that would come!!!!

But the good news is.....it's not too late. Salvaton time and Christ's true peace within our soul and heart is at hand.....Almighty God is offering His Grace.

How so?

Please point out any differences between today's Judaism and the Judaism of the bronze age!

And I don't mean "differences" like "Jews failed to acknowledge the Messiah" or any blabla like that. I mean actual factual differences in belief or ritual.

I don't see you having changed your opinion much in this discussion either.

We listened to the prophets that did come, not to the self-proclaimed prophets that came afterwards.

Are you not running out of clean priests?

leauki posts:

I have already done that.

None of the forms of Judaism that were established after 70AD have these 3 holy things...and, if by some chance a Temple is built...it won't be holy as Our Lord God won't be there.

Actually, the OT Scriptures tell something different.....that only a remant of Jews actually listened to Almighty God's prophets  and remained faithful.

If the majority of Jews had listened to the prophets, including the one that Moses spoke of (Christ Himself), they would not have missed the Messias Christ's visitation.

The simplest way to understand the prophecies is that it's meant to encourage the Jews at the time of the prophet. Take Zacharias for example whose prophecy encourages the Jews of the 6th century BC with the promised coming of the Messias. It starts with that time and culminates with the events of Christ's First Coming.    

Anyway, we've been round and round on that.