LULA POSTS:

TPP posts 330

Regarding the highlighted....You are wrong, TPP, very wrong. The plain, the common and the literal sense of Scripture teaches that the Holy Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ. The Eucharist is 100% from Christ and not from paganism.

kfc posts 344

Really? Number one rule huh? You have proven you are inconsistent in following your own rule then. You're quite the literalist when it comes to certain passages of the Apocalypse, but when it comes to my Lord Jesus' own explicit words in St. John 6, you sing the "it's symbolic" tune. With St.John 6, the common sense, plain sense and the literal sense is forced to take a back seat to your already held Protestant views that have been programmed without let up that all things Catholic must be condemned. 

Concerning the Holy Eucharist, the Lord did not leave us orphans during the "thousand year" Millennial Church age. He founded His Church which is "the pillar and bulwark of truth" and literally gives us Himself through the Holy Eucharist, the Bread of Life. The Apostles and Christ's earliest disciples certainly knew this. 1Cor.11: 23-27 quotes verbatim the Eucharist already in use in the Apostolic liturgy.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. 24 And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink  the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilt of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. 30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

TPP posts:

kfc posts 344

TPP

KFC posts:

You are not the first and won’t be the last to reject the Holy Eucharist.  Christ knew some did not believe. Remember it’s here in St. John 6:64, that Judas fell away. “After this many of His disciples drew back and no longer went about with Him.”  6:66. (Interesting 3 numbers huh?).

You don’t believe in the literal Real Presence of our Lord in the Holy Eucharist, but now go even further saying the Eucharist is pagan. With that, you're not kickin for Christ, you're kickin' Christ.

And what you've been saying all along about the Church is wrong, but I know you are only repeating the contradicitons of Protestantism itself of which you have been programmed without let-up.

The Blessed Eucharist is the sacramental presence of Christ Himself in the CC and goes to the heart of Catholicism. As a matter of fact, there is no true Christianity without the Eucharist any more than there is without the Incarnation itself.  

In their eagerness to attack the Church, false charges have been made as the Eucharist is pagan and the Chruch and Catholicism is mixed with paganism....

A couple of points.

You're describing what's known as the pagan religions, particularly the Babylonian cults, that came into the Roman Empire from the East a few centuries before Christ. They all seem to have arisen through personifications of nature particulary birth and death as seen in the cycles of the seasons. Mithraism was widespread during the first centuries of Christianity chiefly amongst the pagan Roman soldiers.  

Since these pagan cults had superficial similiarties to Catholicism thePP implies the false argument of descent. Mithraism had in its rites a symolic banquet of bread and water. But this wasn't sacramental in the Christian sense and had no similiarity with the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist any more than any partaking of bread and water under any other conceivable circumstances. THePP assertions are entirely untrue. The early Christian rite was based upon the offering of Melchisedech which was of bread and wine, not bread and water and never, ever did the early Chruch substitute water for wine in this Sacramental rite. They knew quite well that water would be an invalid substance for the purposes of the Eucharist and that the very substances used by Christ Himself had to be used.   

The first Christians were Jews and they would have never accepted pagan rites which they hated and held in the utmost abomination. Christ Himself promised the Eucharist while at the synagogue in Capharnaum and at the Last Supper He instituted the Eucharist. Read St.John 6: 25-70 Christ's discourse on the Bread of Life wher Christ promises to nousish mankind with the Divine soul-saving food of His own Flesh and Blood. He was telling the Jews that "I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.....For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."

My Lord Jesus repeated it and repeated it laying greater stress on the literal sense. At first the Jews thought he meant it  metaphorically. Then after Jesus summarized, the Jews asked how can this man give us His flesh to eat? This is the point when they took Jesus at His word. They were stupified for they understood Jesus literally and correctly. Verse 60, many of them found it to be a "hard saying" they left.

Jesus asked the Apostles if they would also go. And St.Peter answered, "....you have the words of eternal life and we have believed..."  At that time, they certainly didn't understand exactly what CHrist meant, but they accepted it becasue they believed in Christ and that's what we Catholics do as well.

But how could the faithful partake of His true living Flesh and Blood? Well, search the Scriptures...and you'll learn exactly how Christ intended to give His Flesh and Blood to the faithful to eat and drink...the full explanaton is found in the account of the Last Supper. St>Matt. 26:26-28; St.Mark 14:22-24; St.Luke 22:19-20.

These passages speak of the bread and wine which the OT predicted that Christ would offer a true sacrifice to God in bread and wine, that He would use those elements. Gen. 14:18 Melchisedech offered sacrifice under the form of bread and wine and Ps. 109 predicted that Christ would be a priest according to the order of Melchisedech.

I agree.  But where we differ is you believe that the beginnings of the RCC and these Jews are one and the same.  They are NOT.  The RCC stole Christianity from these early Christians.  They made it into a big business and shut down all competing business.  It was NEVER meant to be like that.  Christianity is about followers of Christ coming together and worshipping him in unity.  It was never supposed to be this big denomination business that the RCC made it out to be.  Jesus said by their fruits you can know them.  Today the Pope is admitting that the persecution of the RCC is because of their own sins from inside.  This is NOT Christ's church Lula.  You've been duped! 

Paul wrote to the Colossians about this subject saying they needed to go nowhere else.  John in his letters to the 7 churches in Revelation warned the churches not to go into paganism but it says they did.  You can see how the new churches stayed pure for a while and then they let in the false teachings (RCC) when it says: 

 "I know your works and where you dwell even where Satan's seat is (ROME) and you hold fast my name and have not denied my faith even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr who was slain among you where Satan dwells.  But I have a few things against you because you hold the doctrine of Balaam who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication.  So you also have them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolatians which I hate."  Rev 3:13-15

Peter mentions this as well in his letter 2 Peter 2:15-19:

"WHich have forsaken the right way and are gone astray following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor who loved the wages of unrighteousness But was rebuked for his iniquity the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.  These are wells without water clouds that are carried with a tempest to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.  For when they speak great swelling words of vanity they allure though the lusts of the flesh through much wantoness those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.  While they promise them liberty they themselves are the servants of corruption for of whom a man is overcome of the same is he brought in bondage". 

The way of Balaam is the covetousness of one who hires himself to do religious work for personal gain.  We know now that for centuries homosexual priests hid from the world under the umbrella of the RCC.  There they could go about and practice their fornication secretly and no one would know because of the great power over the people they wielded. Now it's all crashing down because now they don't have to hide anymore.  You can be a homosexual in the open today.  No need to become a priest to practice this lifestyle.  That's why there is such a shortage of priests today.

This way is contrasted with the right way. Wells without water is the barrenness of the false teachers mocks the thirsty soul who sincerely wants to learn God's way from them.  The mists like the false teachers seem to promise refreshment but in reality do no good.  I think Peter was talking about the beginnings of the RCC here even though it wasn't to begin for another three centuries.  This was the under current. 

I doesn't say Judas fell away here.  You're "adding" to scripture.  You keep bringing up John Chap 6 but you do not understand it.  You only read it thru the lenses of the RCC.  You completely time and time again dismiss the context of Chapts 4-7 and the fact that Jesus said quite clearly:

"...the words that I speak to you they ARE SPIRIT, and they are life."  6:63

He's coming right out plain as day saying these words are spiritual.  He's saying it's NOT Carnal.  You're taking it as carnal when it was never meant to be.  The soul CANNOT be nourished by material food.  Soul is NOT material.  It's spirit he's talking Lula.  You've got it backwards.   You dance all around that verse omitting every time you bring up the "eucharist." 

What you're doing is teaching paganism.  This is part of the RCC's pagan beliefs mixed in with Christianity. The scriptures are clear that there is to be NO eating of blood but that is exactly what the RCC teaches in their version of the "eucharist."  It's cannibilism.  That's why some fell away.  They thought Christ was talking about eating blood and flesh (like you).  That was abhorrant to a Jew.  Remember who Christ is speaking to.  This is very important.  The Jews wouldn't touch blood.  Even the women going thru their menstral cycles were considered unclean and here you have Jesus saying "eat blood?"  Are you crazy they are thinking and they walked.    

I notice you love to quote the scriptures all around John 6 but keep omitting v63.  You dance around it constantly.  Can't you see this?     

leauki posts:

Catholicism is Christianity. Christianity is the religion of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ.

Christ established only one religion that speaks with His authority.....that has domiciled itself everywhere on earth.....that teaches His doctrines that are everywhere the same in essence....that exists inseparably with  Christ and the trunk of a body exists with its head.

Catholicism is the system of faith and morals revealed by God to man through Jesus Christ Who founded a Catholic Chruch as a depository of that revelation.

Christian is the name first given to the followers of my Lord Jesus Christ at Antioch Acts. 11:26. Since the rise of Protestantism, the name has been used in so many different senses as to have becme almost meaningless.

KFC

Yes, KFC, they are one and the same. When you put Scripture and history together, your denial doesn't hold.

We read in the Book of Acts 2:37-42 that the first Jewish Christians became members of the body of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ founded on St. Peter as per St. Matt. 16:18-19. Christ prayed for St.Peter that his faith may not fail and His prayer was surely fulfilled. At the end of the Last Supper, Christ prayed for the others that He will later send out to teach and baptize all nations which would begin to be accomplished on Pentecost. This Church is one in Apostolic teaching and has been unified througout the centuries in one hope, one faith, one baptism. Remember that Christ promised He would be with His Chruch until the end of the world? From Christ, the Apostles through today, the Church miraculously exists and if it didn't you wouldn't bother opposing it.

Your claim is not true.  

There's reasons for things and that's why Protestant book stores don't stock the writings of the early Church Fathers and Doctors.

Christ established one Church with one set of beliefs..(not numberous by the thousands of churches with contradictory beliefs). To see which is the true CHurch, we look for the one that has an unbroken historical link to the Chruch of the NT. Catholics can show the unbroken link tracing their bishops back through time all the way back to the Apostles. Catholics can show that Pope Benedict XVI is the lineal successor to St.Peter. The same is true of Catholic belief and practices. The priesthood, the Mass, the Eucharist, Sacraments, purgatory, to name some, were evident and believed by Christians before the 4th century and this supposed paganizaton took place.

There certainly were no continuously existing groups that believed in key Protestant doctrines: the Bible alone as the complete rule of faith, salvation by faith alone, once saved, always saved, an invisible church of believers in all denominations, and so forth and so on.

Yes, I've seen the reports. His holiness Pope Benedict goes on and explains that the good wheat is not killed by evil weeds.

Sin within Church does not extinguish hope, Pope tells German faithful //

May 17, 2010

Christians "should be glad amidst all the tribulations," Pope Benedict XVI said in a message to a German ecumenical event.

Although "over recent months we have repeatedly had to absorb news that seeks to extract the joy from the Church," the Pope told the annual Kirchentag gathering, the hope that springs from faith cannot be extinguished. The Church "is a place of hope because in her the Lord continues to give Himself to us in the grace of the sacraments," the Pope wrote.

In his message to the German Church the Pope compared the sex-abuse scandal to the weeds that choke the wheat in the Gospel parable. "Weeds exist also in the bosom of the Church and among those whom the Lord has called to His special service," the Pope said. "But the light of God has not gone out, the good wheat has not been choked by the weeds of evil."

...says the Catholic Church.

Proof by assertion. We say we are the authority, hence we are, since the authority says so.

Actually proof by Scriptural assertion...Saint Matthew's Gospel to be exact. Christ built His Church upon Simon whose name He changed to Peter. The name change as well as Peter having been given Christ's keys of the kingdom of heaven signifies Christ's delegated authority. The Lord gave the keys to St. Peter and by St. Peter to the Church. The Church that was under the jurisdiction of St.Peter the first Bishop of Rome continues through today and will until the end of the world.

Christ's delegated authority to His Chruch is what the world hates.

Lula: Quote the relevant lines.

KFC: Please explain those lines to me, your Greek is better than mine.

Either way, there is no proof that of all the different branches the original church (if it ever existed in that form) split into it is the Roman Church that is the original church.

I wouldn't say "hates". I'd say "doubts".

kfc posts:

True...you are describing Catholicism and only Catholicism.

The sacerdotal and doctrinal unity that exists in the CC must be most pleasing to God who willed His Chruch be one in government and faith. On the other hand, the complete disunity in the Protestant world must bring sorrow to Christ our Lord even though members of the varying sects within it profess to believe in Him.  

The divisions and disunity within Protestantism is a sin against Our Lord who instituted "one fold" of "one mind". St.John 10: 16; 2Cor. 13:11 which He commanded to be heard. St.Matt. 18:17.

And Mormonism just as much.

And every other Christian denomination.

Do you believe think "Catholicism" when someone says "followers of Christ coming together"?

Catholicism is all about top-to-bottom. There is no "coming together". "Coming together" is what equals do.

KFC posts:

Exactly. Colossae was a city in the valley of the Lycus River in a region in the west part of Anatolia (modern Turkey). The Church at Colossae was part of the universal Catholic Church. In Colossae false teachings of a Judaizing tendency as well as pre-Gnosticism were being spread. And St.Paul is writing to the Church there warning the Collossians these false doctrines are a danger to their faith which they must hold on because it is the only true one.

........ 

KFC posts:

Where do you get that? Oh ya, your private interpretation of Scripture.  

Not true.  It doesn't say the 7 churhes all fell into paganism. Rather, it teaches that all the churches were in some way faltering in their mission.

I see your hatred for Christ's Church colors your private interpretation of Scripture.

First, a minor point.....it's Apoc. 2:13-15, not 3.

This is the church located in Pergamum. Unlike the other 6 cities, Pergamum is the location where Satan has long set up his camp. Around 29 BC, Pergamum was the center of emperor worship and a place of wicked forces of evil. Satan's here becasue he doesn't want the Christian faith to be spread in this world of godless people.

Here, Jesus is weilding a sharp two-edged sword in front of the bishop of Pergamaum as a threat of judgment becasue he has allowed some members to teach false things in the Chruch which is under his care. The leaders are told to repent and purge the sin from the Church. If they do they will receive the "hidden manna" and "white stone" with a name only they will know.  

This passage tells us the Church at Pergamum is commended by the Lord "for they stand firm in the faith even in the midst of their members who are  killed one being "Antipas". From the writings of the Church Fathers, we know that Antipas was one of the bishops of the Church in the reign of Domitian who encased him in a metal bull and set it on fire.