She keeps bringing this up over and over and over and over ad nauseum.   She doesn't wish to hear it so I just now tune it out when she keeps bringing it up.

She's quoting Matthew 16:18 which says:  "And I say also to thee, That thou art Peter (Petros-masculine) and upon this rock (Petra-feminine) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." 

The RCC has taken this scripture as their foundational verse saying Peter was their first pope (he's turning in his grave now) and going from there.  They've backdated their popes to Peter years after the fact and use this verse as their proof text. 

Other Protestant groups have done similar since taking other scriptures and making a religion around it.  It's common.

The name for Peter is Petros which in the Greek means "rock" or "rock-man."  In the next phrase Christ used "Petra" (upon this rock) which is a feminine form for "rock" not a name.  Christ used a play on words.  He used two different Gk words for rock here.  He does not say upon you Peter (rock-man) or your successors but upon "this rock" Petra I will build my church.  The "I will build" shows that the formation of the church was still in the future.  Not Peter will build but Christ would build.

The GK "petros" commonly means "stone" in pre-Christian literature but the Aramaic "kepa" which underlies the Gk means "rock."   and "upon this rock" becomes petra (feminine).  There is a distinction between petros and petra. 

Some say Peter was just a stone because the Greek petros commonly means "stone" but had Matthew wanted to say no more than Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus as the Rock, the more common word would have been "lithos" (stone of any size) and he didn't.  Then there would have been no pun.

Peter himself attests that Jesus himself is the rock.  1 Peter 2:5-8

In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church. Not Peter.  The text says NOTHING about Peter's successors, infallibility or exclusive authority.  What the NT does show is that Peter is the first to make this formal confession and that his prominence continues in the earliest years of the church.  But he, along with John can be sent by other apostles (Acts 8:14) and he is held accountable for his actions by the Jerusalem church (11:1-18) and rebuked by Paul (Gal 2:11-14).  He is, in short, "primus inter pares" (first among equals) and on the foundation of such men Jesus built his church. 

All thru the scriptures elsewhere Christ is called the rock.  Everywhere.  I could go on and on dragging scriptures up to show you.  I like this one Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church:

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them (in the wilderness) and that Rock was Christ."    10:4

So this is saying even in the Exodus Christ, the Rock, was with them.  That's why Moses got in so much trouble for striking the rock twice for water.  There's a huge background story here I won't get into.  But Christ is the sustenence and He would (in the future as a human) be struck once, not twice. 

you know Lula.  I don't disagree here really even when you mention the universal Catholic Church because that's right.  Where we differ is the fact that you believe the modern RCC (after 4th century) and the early church are one and the same. 

I'm telling you they are not.  Things changed when Rome stopped persecuting the early church and jumped on board with them allowing them to worship freely.  That's where Politics and Religion first mixed in together and when the powerful RCC was first begun. 

This is an attack and is absurd. 

I am part of the body of Christ so why would I hate Christ's church which is His body?  No.  You are equating Christ's church with the RCC and that is not true.  I do not privately interpret scripture either.  Scripture interprets itself as I've told you over and over.   Why not just admit it now?  Private interpretation is ok as long as the RCC interprets it.  It's funny how that works Lula.  You accuse me of what you're guilty of. 

exactly.  There is no hierachy in the Christian faith.  We are all supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ (as were the early church) helping each other with the gifts God has given us. 

St.Matthew 16:13-

13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Caesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

 "Thou art Peter"... As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ; so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz., that he to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, St. John 1. 42, should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be, next to Christ himself, the chief foundation stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven. 

"Upon this rock"... The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the language of the Jews which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, St. Matt. 7: 24-25.

"The gates of hell"... That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself, or his agents. For as the church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, that is, the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the church of Christ.

Another passage where Christ delegates His authority is St.Matt. 28: 16-20.

16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

18 "All power"... See here the warrant and commission of the apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ's Church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, He sends them (even as His Father sent Him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations; and instruct them in all truths: and that He may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, He promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ Himself, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. St. John 14.

kfc posts:

lula posts

kfc posts:

KFC, That which you wrote here is not only an absurd attack against the Church, it's hateful as well. Your posts lately are filled with it which I've overlooked, but not this time.

KFC posts:

KFC.

For this to be true Christ would have to be divided and He is not. St.Paul infallibly teaches there is only one Body of Christ and St.Paul was baptized into that body which is the CC, the pillar and ground of truth. 1Tim 3:15.  You have said you were baptized into the CC, but since have made the free decision to be not part of it...in other words, you are clearly without the CC.

St.Paul asks, "What have I to do to judge them that are without? Do not judge them that are within. For them that are without, God will judge. 1Cor. 5:12-13.  We've seen that the Church from the time of the First Pentecost when she was sent into active operation is one visible Chruch, whose members were within that Church, sinners, saints and all. Those who are not in the Chruch are "without".

Even if all the Protestants in the world molded into one church, it still could not claim to be Christ's Chruch for there is only one Chruch that functions with the authority of Christ ...that has the legitimate sacerdotal (sacrificng priesthood according to the order of Melchisedech) and the Real Presence of Christ in the sanctuary of her tabernacles.  

The Catholic Chruch is the Mystical Body of Christ. St.Paul says, "CHrist is the head of the body, the Chruch." Col. 1:18. That's why the CC is able to "glorify Christ with one mind and one mouth." Rom. 15:6. That is why the gates of Hell were never able to prevail against the Chruch and that's why the Catholic Church has been, is and will continue to be misrepresented and maligned as was her Founder, Jesus Christ.

Christ said, "If the world hates you, know that it hated me before you. If you had been of the world, the wolrd would love its own,; but becasue you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." St.John 15:  18-19.

no it's not!  For the umpteenth time!!! 

The one body is ALL CHRISTIANS united by the Holy Spirit.  Not the RCC!!!!! 

I've met Catholics from all over the globe.  They are NOT united either Lula like someone also mentioned above showing the difference in beliefs under the umbrella of the RCC itself!!!  That includes Bishops, Priests, Cardinals etc.  They are NOT united.  Just because they belong to the same organization doesn't make them united. 

The ONLY THING that binds Christians together is the Holy Spirit.  It seals believers at the time of belief.  That's it.  It's not about any earthly denomination.  That is NOT CHRIST'S Church. 

You have been duped!  Christ's church are those who follow HIM DESPITE the earthly organization they belong to.  Only those sealed by the Holy Spirit can be considered part of the body of Christ. 

This is biblical.   The RCC is NOT! 

The Protestant forefathers ditched the Church and Church authority and insisted on the right to think for themselves and build up their own systems accordingly. As a result, private interpretation of Scripture is praised as a principal benefit of the Protestant Reformation. The Protestant principle, Do not be told by the CC what to think on religion, but be free to think for yourself is proving fatal to Protestantism...for rationalism is setting in. Protestants have simply asserted their freedom to think Protestantism itself and indeed all religion useless.  

If, as you claim, Scripture interprets itself,  then everyone who reads it would come to the same interpretation and meaning. Every Protestant would read Apoc. 20:1-6 and come up with the same silly ideas on that as you. But they don't. That clearly hasn't happened within Protestantism as there is doctrinal dissension everywhere. Every year finds Protestantism splitting up into still further sects and in the end it will fall, as must every house divided against itself.

The Holy Bible needs an interpreter. We see that in the case of the Ethiopian who admitted he did not understand what he was reading and needed St. Philip, a deacon in the Church, to interprete the meaning of the passage from Isaias. Acts 8:26-40.  St.Philip is known as the Evangelist was commissioned by the Apostles Acts 6:6 and who preached the Gospel with authority. Acts 8:4-8. The point here is that the statement of the Ethiopian verifies 2 facts.... that the Bible is not sufficient in itself as a teacher of Christian doctrine, and that it does not interpret itself.  

The Pharisees read Scripture yet, managed to use, or misuse quotations as an argument against Christ just as many people today quote  Scripture thinking they make an argument against Christ's Church, the CC.

 No, no, no...private interpretation is not OK. The CC has Christ's authority to interpret the Scriptures. We see this with St.Philip and the Ethiopian. You reject the infallibility of the CC, but I don't have that same problem. I am subject to the Chruch which is infallible when teaching in matters of faith and morals, and which gives me absolute certainity of the truth.

When you read Scripture, you can't claim certainity yourself, nor have you any certain guide.    

Besides, the Chruch had the truth in all its fullness for years before the NT was written. The Apostles were instructed by Our LOrd. It was they and their own disciples who wrote what later became the NT to clarifiy, emphasize, and explain to the clergy the doctrines they had received from their living teachers. That's why no Catholic doctrine conflicts with any other, and no teaching of the Chruch is contradicted by any Bible text rightly understood.     

Yes, absolutely agree with this.  

Now, when and how are we sealed by the Holy Spirit? It's when we are Baptized by water, desire or blood. Baptism "cleanses" us from original sin, makes us Christians, that is members of Christ's mystical body, the Church, adopted children of God, and heirs of Heaven. How is Baptism given? Whoever baptizes should pour water (by infusion or immersion) on the head of the person and say, while pouring the water, I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. At this moment, the Holy Ghost washes or purifies sin from our soul and we are spiritually regenerated with sanctifying (supernatural) new life of grace. the Holy Spirit imprints a seal or character on the soul and admits the recepient to membership in Christ's Catholic Church.

Baptism brings us to the Mystical Body of Christ.

lula posts:

Yes it is for the umpteenth plus one time!

St.Paul teaches the one Church is the one Mystical Body of Christ.

In Ephesians 4: 3-6 , St.Paul speaks of maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace Verses 4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. "

The Catholic Church and only the CC fits Ephesians. The Church, the Mystical Body of Christ,  is the "one body" established by the one Lord Jesus Christ, with one Spirit, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father ....

kfc posts

No, KFC. This is your definition of "Church". It doesn't work with Ephesians 4:3-6. "All Christians" would include all those within the thousands of different Protestant sects..."All these Christians" have proven themselves to be doctrinally different and having different beliefs. Some believe and some don't believe that Jesus is equal to the Father, in the resurrection of Christ, in Heaven, in Hell, that baptism is essential to becoming a Christian, and on and on and on.

All this proves there is no unity amongst "ALL Christians" of all the thousands of different sects.

For this to be true you must show how all these different sects fit with Ephesians 4:5-6.

Save your time...you can't do it...no one can do it for the simple truth is Protestantism is a house divided.....there is no unity.

lula posts

leauki posts 357

KFC,

You mention worshipping in unity....That's why I said you are dsecribing only Catholicism for I know the CC worships in unity becasue of the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass....but how do "all the Christians" in the different Protestant sects worship in unity?

.............................

And speaking of the Mystical Body of Christ...

Leauki,

in answer to your question and comment....YES.

The Church, the Mystical Body of Christ is communion with Christ.

From the beginning, Jesus associated His disciples with His own life, revealed the mystery of the kingdom to them, and gave them a share in His mission, joy and sufferings. Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between Him and those who would follow Him. "Abide in Me, and I in you...I am the vine, you are the branches. And He proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between His own Body and ours: "He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood abides in Me and I in him." St.John 6:56.

When His visible presence was taken away, Jesus did not leave us orphans. He promised to remain with us until the end of the world. He sent His Spirit. As a result of receiving His Real Presence in the Eucharist as well as receiving His Spirit, communion with Him has become more intense. By communicating His SPirit, Christ mystically constitutes as His body those of us who are by baptism called together from every nation. That's where the "coming together" enters the Christian life.

So there is an intimate bond between Christ and His Church. Not only is she gathered around Him, she is united in HIm in His Body. Specifically, all of her members are united with each other as a result of their union with Christ as the Head of the Body.

Now, here's where the equality comes in.

The Mystical Body's unity does not do away with the diversity of its members and functions rather it produces and stimulates charity among the faithful. If one member suffers, all the members suffer. If one member is honored, all the members rejoice. Finally the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions. "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ."

How does this happen? Go back and read the passage of Ephesians that I've been talking about with KFC....4:3 says we are to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Remember you said the Messias must bring peace and I said He already did for those who accept Him.

The peace which unites Catholics is the peace which Christ brings or rather, it is Christ Himself 2:14. By having the same "one faith" and the same "one Spirit", we find ourselves brought together in the Church old and young, rich and poor, adult and child, people of every condition, the strong, the weak, in wheelchairs, some blind, others need an oxygen tube to breathe, all equal...we become one and the same, more closely united than the parts of a single body for the unity of souls is more intimate and more perfect than that of any substance.

This equality, this unity is maintained in the bond of peace..which is Christ Himself.  

You see, it's that sort of poetic nonsense that makes you sound so silly.

A "Mystical Body of Christ"... something is "communion with Christ"... everything is so complicated and nothing works without the leadership of man and lots of empty words. "Mystical Body of Christ"... who talks like that???

This is so removed from what Jesus' point was, it's ridiculous.

Jesus criticised the top-to-bottom nature of Judaism (and in fact this has changed a bit since then), he was a revolutionary. Jesus wanted everyone to be equal and brothers and live together. He did not think in terms of command structure. His followers followed him not because they had to (or risk excommunication) but because they wanted to.

But you think in other terms.

I am sure that's also why you have a very negative view of those Jews who didn't follow Jesus. For KFC, they missed an opportunity. For you they refused to follow orders. For KFC they will eventually come to Jesus because G-d never abandons anyone, especially not His people. For you, they are condemned to being wrong.

Everyone did that.

I can myself tell people not to fight and claim that I brought world peace since everybody who follows my command is not fighting any more. That's not the trick.

The trick is to bring ACTUAL world peace, to convince everyone to be peaceful. Obviously that has not happened yet.

And the Catholic Church has never been a big help either.

no.  You DON'T have a clue.  It has NOTHING to do with sects!!!!  It has NOTHING to do with denominations!!!!  I can be united with a Christian in an Ethiopian Church or a Bulgarian Church or a Messianic Jew in the middle of Israel.  It has NOTHING to do with where they worship but all to do with WHO they worship.  You seriously need to read John 4 about the Samaritan woman at the well.  That's why Christ said to this woman that it's NOT the place of worship that matters but the spirit of worship that does.

The Pharisees couldn't get it...all but Nicodemus that is.  He got it.  They kept listening to Christ talk and all they could dwell on was the physical.  They couldn't grasp what he was saying when he spoke of spiritual things.  That's what you're doing.  That's why you see blood and flesh as physical not spiritual.  That's why you look at physical baptism not spiritual baptism (Holy Spirit) etc.   

Notice how the Pharisees attacked their own when they attacked Nicodemus and the officers they sent to arrest Jesus:

"Then answered the Pharisees, Are you also deceived?  Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed on him?  But "this people"  (an insult and a sneer) who know not the law are cursed.  Nicodemus said to them, Does our law judge any man before it hears him and knows what he does?  They answered and said unto him, Are you also of Galilee?  Search and look for out of Galilee arises no prophet."  John 7:47-52.

There dispositions were exposed as they attacked and insulted not only the officers but also a fellow Pharisee who only appealed to their own Jewish law saying we need to at least be fair here.  They sneered at him making a comment not only that no Prophet comes out of Galilee (they were wrong) but they called the people "this people" insulting those that would even think of following Jesus who spoke like no one else.  They also held themselves up pridefully when they said "have any rulers or Pharisees beleived on him?   Basically saying the doctrine the great and learned did not recevive is always assumed to be wrong.

That's what you're doing.  You're looking down and sneering at anyone who dares not believe in the Holy RCC.  Who dares not to follow their organization?   Anyone who does not is cursed.  That's what your religion teaches.  It's not of Christ.  You get on the RCC's bandwagon or you're sunk.  They've got all the answers just like the Pharisees did.  NOT! 

here we go again...you keep harping on John 6 yet dance around 6:63.  Why did you ignore John 6:63 and my comments concerning this?  Is it too painful to look at Lula? 

exactly.  There will be no peace until the Prince of Peace comes back.  Until then we are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.  When there is Peace there, there will be Peace everywhere! 

not individually nor corporately.  The RCC has NEVER been a picture of peace.  Lula refuses to see this.  They don't represent Christ AT ALL!  They think they do.  But instead they represent the Pharisees.  They are about doing works and looking good on the outside while the inside is rotten!  All sin covered on earth is open scandal in heaven and will be uncovered.  I think what we are seeing with the RCC today is proof of that.  For those RC who have eyes to see and ears to hear that is. 

yep. 

Lula posts:

KFC posts:

I'm not adding to Scripture. I mis-stated the verse...it's the next verse 65. "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray Him." Verse 72 confirms Judas Iscariot did not believe what Christ was saying, fell away and would betray Him in direct contrast to Peter and the others who did not leave Christ and believed what He had just said about literally eating His Body and Blood.       

That's why I said you aren't the first who doesn't believe it...you join with these unbelieving Jews and leave Christ on this one. And that's true of all Protestants. They take some of Christ's teacings and docrtines and leave others.  

 Take the part of verse 65 which says, "...for Christ knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe.." 

And apply that to St.Matt. 26:26-28, at the Last Supper "Jesus took bread...gave it to His disciples and said, Take and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, ...He said, drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins."

We know that Christ died for all mankind, but here He is saying something different...note the part "which shall be shed for many." 

"Bread...take and eat. This is my body. ....chalice...drink all of this. For this is my blood.." This is where Christ institutes the Holy Eucharist.....and something else as well. Blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto the remission of sins."....

As the Old Covenant was dedicated by the blood of victims, in these words, "This is the blood of the new testament.." here is the dedication of the New Covenant in the blood of Christ..here mystically shed for many.

The many are those who believe in the Real Presence of the Holy Eucharist....the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.     Christ knew from the beginning it wasn't going to be all who would believe....it would be many.

Were the same as if he had said it in English?  What? No!  “Peter” and “Rock” are one word in the dialect familiarly spoken by our L-RD- the Aramaic.  This exalted play upon the word can be fully seen only in languages which have one word for both. Even in the Greek it is imperfectly represented.  I think in French translations are a good example  Pierre - pierre.

Furthermore, Matthew was written specifically with a Jewish audience in mind hence why with all the genelogy at the beginning because a religious Jew at that time would read that and realize oh my this man was the Messiah/G-D.  Another thing is that some scholars think that Matthew might have been originally written in Hebrew but that is here nor there. επι ταυτη τη πετρα (This Greek here is from Matthew 16:18 which is accurately translated to Upon this very Rock) With what Jesus was saying here would cause most Jewish to think of: 'The stone that the builders rejected would become the head of the corner' (Psalm 118:22) and 'Behold, I place in Zion a Stone for a foundation, a tried Stone, a precious Cornerstone, a sure Foundation;' (Isaiah 28:16).  Peter was only one of the builders in this sacred edifice, Eph 2:20 (  being built up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the cornerstone,) who himself tells us, (with the rest of the believers), was built on this living foundation stone: 1 Peter 2:4-5 ( to whom having drawn near, a living Stone, indeed having been rejected by men, but chosen by G-D, precious; you also as living stones are being built a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to G-D through Jesus Christ. ), therefore Jesus Christ did not say, on you, Peter, will I build my Church, but changes immediately the expression, and says, upon that very rock, επι ταυτη τη πετρα, to show that he neither addressed Peter, nor any other of the apostles. BUT was to referring to HIMSELF hence why he say MY. 

The Last Supper was a Sedar Passover meal.  Leauki can tell you this that during the Passover there are 4 cups of wine.  I don't have time to go in to detail here (Gedalyah and I are going to spend some much needed quality time together).   The Passover was G-D's covenant showing to the Jews that HE would be there for them.  If you look G-D was constantly reminding them of their time in Egypt every nearly ever feast says something about this.  Jesus was showing that HE was that spotless lamb (lambs were being sacrifice 2 times a day I'll go into more on this later unless someone else wants to aka the importance of lambs)  Essentially, the lamb during the Passover would selected a few weeks before the Passover and be given a name.  To which it would be slaughtered.  I'll get back to this later.  ITs later then I thought.