Ok already ... give me a week to gather my thoughts on all of this, hahaha. If I get too far behind I end up repeating myself and then the confusing really gets so. I am trying to write an article about my conceptions from childhood pertaining to The Catholic Church. OK, I'll start reading now...

The Sudan and all of North Africa had been Catholic for hundreds of years before Mohammed hit the Sharia law scene in 650AD.

The stories coming out of the Sudan, Senagal and Somalia, especially about the abuse of the children, are heartbreaking and chilling. There is no freedom there for these poor people.

If you, the pagan, and I, the Catholic were in the Sudan today, with the take over of Sharia law, neither one of us would be left to continue in our respective belief system. We'd be forced to submit to Islam, forced into servitude, cover ourselves from head to toe and bow down to Allah 5 times a day or else! 

No doubt you've been following what has happened/is happening in Egypt and Libya.  We now know who "the rebels" are. Militant Islamists. Sharia law is now being installed. Today on his show, Rush Limbaugh called Islam a "theological crime syndicate". Where is the wisdom of our so called leaders in ignoring what was sure to follow getting rid of Ghadaffi in the way that they did?

Response to Response # 205: 

As usual you lost me with your jumbling around. If you could let me know what Catholic and European expansion around the world has to do with The Crusades, The Inquisitions and The Dark Ages this would be easier you know??? Lula, I don’t care about other expansions whatever that comprises of. My concern is the devastating influence The Catholic Church had in the new world and beyond throughout the Americas and Africa. So which is it; are we discussing The Crusades, The Inquisitions and The Dark Ages or are we discussing Catholic and European expansionism because I am not going to try following this silly back and forth nonsense any more.

You are so into yourself and your Church that common sense just bounces off you like … never mind. Take one Catholic and one Islamist and try having them discuss Catholicism, Islam or the Crusades, cowabunga! I hope they went through metal detectors for sure. I would surely like to get this on film, hehehe. I can be the ref because I think they are both nuts. Soooo … how do you think the conversation would develop?  It doesn’t leave much for the imagination does it?

You have a book and somehow it tells you that The Catholic Church is the voice of your one God. Well the other guy has a book too and somehow it tells him that his one God is the only truth to be had. It just stands to reason that one or both have been lied to because both cannot be true. Have I lost you yet? Now I being the neutral pagan that I am have no problems believing the latter, but that is just me. Oh, I forgot to mention that their holy books also give them permission to conquer the planet, just food for thought. I can just see it ##4!&^ #%&H endlessly, hehehe!

As the story turns out, I did not go through a metal detector and I pull out my Kimber and ended the annoyance. I can think of little more annoying than sitting there while two idiots explain why they are both right and wrong (just depends on perspective). I have found most adherent Christians are frustrating at best if not chatting it up with another of the flock. Most will excuse themselves after only a minute or two of recruiting if you ask then nice. Others you have to just say goodbye and shut the door. Some are ever persistent. Guess where Catholics fall?

Lulu, you call everyone around you bigots when you guys take first place there. I don’t suspect you have had the ‘pleasure’ of telling a Catholic they are wrong … about anything? If you had, you would have no trouble redefining bigotry in a more worldly light. You cannot write or record history for the rest of us no matter how hard you try … Speaking of the Black Death, how was that manipulated by the Roman Catholic Church to fit prophesy and scripture to cull the people that can’t think for themselves. You forgot the Middle Eastern outbreak in 1347-1351. I count everyone and you concern yourselves with your sheeple. That is your way. So you admit 3,000 to 5,000 were murdered at the Churches pleasure … who said anything about millions ? Ok, off to wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition and what is the first sentence there … millions, hahaha. You do know what torture produces don’t you … confessions … but not the kind you would have us believe, geeze.

“The Inquisition, Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis (inquiry on heretical perversity), was the "fight against heretics" by several institutions within the justice-system of the Roman Catholic Church. It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy. Inquisition practices were used also on offences against canon law other than heresy.”  Copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition ... First three sentences go figure.

You never did explain this: The 1578 handbook for inquisitors spelled out the purpose of inquisitorial penalties: ... quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur. Translation from the Latin: ... for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit."  (Same source) Yep, you guys are the cat's meow all right.

The world had around 450 million people and ended up 75 - 100 million less after the plague. You count the Christians and I count everyone even the Chi-Coms. If the statistics are right (hope so), then Christian death numbered less than ¼ of the guestimated deaths worldwide. You sure do live in a secluded environment. We would really be in trouble if you guys weren’t so merciful with your overabundance of piety, charity and love for your ‘fellow man’

Response to Response # 206:

Oh contraire madam, I know much more about your Church Doctrine and practices than I want. Why would anything the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen had to say be of concern to me??? Blessed Virgin Mary … Protestants … you must have me confused with someone who GAS besides, you always digress. So now I am supposed to just go after your sinful membership for you … because the people who gave them their marching orders are not responsible??? BTW, I stopped looking for proof of your one God for you just so you know.

Response to Response # 207:

Lula, I don’t care how lulu you want to act towards your beliefs and The Church you so admire. Why should I??? You guys have made your bed so stop bitching about having to sleep in it. Your mistake is trying (metaphorically) to get me into bed with you … and everyone else too. That is where the problems come in. I would like to think that you guys never expected resistance in your quest to dominate the Earth … but we both know that is not the case. The rest is just more Catholic gobbledygook. 

Would I be wrong in guessing that your daughter goes to a Catholic school pray tell. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, you have mentioned it and you even produced some numbers that seem to come from there (I do remember some of those irritating [1] … [100] footnote markers) but I don’t remember anything substantive. Here I’ll spell it out for you: Your research is so Church/religiously biased as to be dismissed from consideration due to blatant hypocrisy and outright fabrications.  I would caution you not to believe everything in an encyclopedia though as zealots always seem to infiltrate them to some degree. You have tried to tell me where I shouldn’t go for information to battle you and your Church with but … it might be simpler if you told me where I should go for it, hehehe … like the same places you look in no doubt … no thank you very much.

I'm ready to move on.  You made your claim and I made mine in rebuttal.

------------------------------

Exactly. The Bible versus the Qur'an. The religion of the Bible is Catholicism and the religion of the Qur'an is Islam and Sharia law.

No one with a sense of logic and a knowledge of history could accept Islam as a religion truly revealed by God. Mohammed founded Islam around 630 and blended Jewish, Christian and Arabic elements. His doctrines and the history of his  religious movement cannot possibly claim a Divine origin in he light of critical analysis.

Absolutely agree.

No.

Interesting. Let's put that into a hypothetical. I'm Catholic and you are Muslim practicing Islam and Sharia law according to the Qur'an. 

Let us suppose that we both live in a country that 95% of the population was Catholic --the other 5% Muslim. The Catholic Church declares that no one can be received into her fold against his will. The Catholic Church then, on her own principle, cannot compel the 5% to become Catholics if they don't want to do so. Therefore even in a Catholic state, they must be tolerated in the sense that they be allowed to worship God in their own mistaken way and according to their personal, if erroneous, conscience.

Now turn the scenario around --- we both live in a country that is 95% Muslim --the other 5% Catholic. Get my drift?

You have no idea how many times I have written to Catholic politicians like Pelosi after they have voted to promote abortion and called them what they are....hypocrites. Or to Catholic presidents of Catholic colleges, like Notre Dame, who invite pro-abort Obama to speak to the graduates!  These people like to call themselves Catholic, but they do not walk the walk. They are CINO...Catholic in name only.These people are scandalous. 

--------------------

Response to Response # 208, #209 and #210:

Have you looked at the world outside your sanctuary … and you are concerned that an R rated movie would make you occasion sin????????? This was not a guess on my part as you told me elsewhere, just a little truth checkup, sorry. You say the funniest things sometimes like … If one understands ‘inspiration’, exasperation is more apt … tradition confirms Biblical inspiration … oh this is silly. What in the world does tradition have to do with the truth??????

I will grant you leeway in reference to your Bible as long as you keep me (personally) out of it. I din't care what you do with the other 6,999,999,999 people that is between you and them. But the problem as I see it is when you make comments like this “The infallible teaching of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church”. Most human beings on this planet (like 6.999999 billion out of 7 billion) have never been made privy to it. You know this is a real sore point with one of your enemies, The Protestants … so are you claiming you have access to the documentation hidden from the world by The Catholic Church … or are you spreading hearsay from someone who heard it from someone else until someone wrote a synopsis for you peddle as the truth?

I know that you are supposed to be into the truth and all, so why doesn’t the Catholic Church open the archives to scholars (of all stripes) and other Christians … why that would be tantamount to some idiot running for President without a birth certificate. If there were any desire to be truthful beyond reproach well … show us the beef and quit trying to short sell the rest of us with plagiarized third hand information from important people, geeze.

From a cursory scan, I didn’t see much to complain about Pope Leo XIII although he is not on my favorites reading list. I have a little more interest in his predecessor Pope Pius IX. But here is an example of the hypocrisy of Catholic Dogma: Pope Pius IX lived long enough to witness the death of his old adversary, Victor Emmanuel II of Italy in January 1878. As soon as he learned about the seriousness of the situation of the king, he absolved him of all excommunications and other ecclesiastical punishments. Yea, justice for all and all for justice … that is The Catholic Church for sure. So what am I to think when I myself am doomed by excommunication alone and why … because my forced baptism as a child decrees it to be so, go figure? Hum, do they have to notify me about my being kicked out of your club or is it just automatic excommunication. Just curious is all, not looking for absolution especially from a bunch of bigots.

You know Lula, this was all rhetorical and only required a yes/no answer if any at all was needed, that would have  sufficed because we both knew the answers already … that’s what makes it rhetorical, hahaha.

Just when I thought I was through for the night, oh well. Ok, move on I shall. It is my guess that a 2,000 year old feud over the dominion of the Earth is not going to go away in the even not-so-foreseeable future. I don’t care about Islam, that nonsense is between you guys and your god and them and their god. I don’t really have a big problem with Christianity (all things considered) as that is between you guys and I have no say. But I have many problems with The Roman Catholic Church as you may be aware of. I am quite comfortable with hypothesizing a confrontation between two idealistic know-it-alls on a fast track to murdering each other … Than I am with country sized complications including many millions of people. But in light of present worldwide religious complications … I get your point such as it is.

I don’t have much good to say about our politicians myself … but I think it is pretty naïve of you to expect political Catholics to toe the line. You know the Democrat Party is anti-church don’t you??? How could any real Catholic be a Democrat in the first place is beyond me especially considering your pet peeve, abortions and Planned Parenthood? I don’t have any more confidence in the Republican Party either as they remind me of Catholics who consider everything they do and say to be beyond reproach, go figure. Lula, I was talking about real Catholic Christians, not pretenders and ‘Sunday’ Christians. CINO now I like that …

""No one with a sense of logic and a knowledge of history could accept Islam as a religion truly revealed by God. Mohammed founded Islam around 630 and blended Jewish, Christian and Arabic elements"

So why should anyone believe Christianity is the religion truly revealed by god. Using logic and my knowledge of history I would have to conclude that maybe Hinduism or Buddism is the true religion since they came prior. Not Abrahamic religions of course but the mere fact that you write off every non abrahamic  religion from the start of your posts and then proceed to back yourself up with a timeline is interesting. It is obvious to me why you choose to have no need to explain that however one thing I'd like to say is that the vast majority of religious folk I know from various abrahamic sects believe they are all talking about the same god but have different ways of practicing due to cultural factors. That seems to be one of the keys to religious tolerance to me. Personally I think anything that involves prophecy relates to snake oil, however I did go to church growing up and one thing I did learn there is that we are not perfect and do make mistakes in judgement and understanding sometimes. What I find interesting is how you keep trying to prove something with historical information (some correct and some incorrect)that can not be proven. The people I know who truly believe that their religion is more than just a control or teaching mechanism tend to say ultimately there is a "leap of faith". You on the other hand tend to try to explain that your sect of Christianity is the only true one by using some statements that are truly opposite of the some of the teachings of Christ. That amazes (however does not surprise) me.

AGAIN, like I said, you don't really know or understand the Church or the Catholic Faith. It's never been about physical earthly domination. Rather it's always been about saving immortal souls...yes, including yours ...and entering the Heavenly City. 

Catholics are to be "in the world, but not of the world". Catholic Christianity doesn't dominate the world that's for sure. You must be thrilled...for even Protestant America has given over to Secular and Atheistic Humanism (will Totalitarianism follow?) and Islam is making headway everywhere else. 

 But Yes, history shows we always expected resistance. From the very beginning of the world the lines were drawn. In Genesis, which gives us a synthesis of universal history, through a small, Semitic people to the coming of God-man which was the turning point of history, God told us there would be an epic battle between good and evil, life and death.

When the great power of God was brought to earth in the Person of Christ, Who gave us His Chruch and His teachings, what was the response?

It fell into 2 categories based on the object of their love. The Heavenly City, a society built up on the love of God and neighbor, or the earthly society built up on the love of self to the contempt of God.

Of this we have Christ's own words....

Christ said, He who is not with Him is against Him.  He also said, If the world hates you, know that it has hated Me, before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but becasue you are not of the world, becasue I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."

Man has the power to choose: either by subordinating his will to the Divine order, or to the satisfaction of his own desires and making himself the center of the universe.

The struggle between these 2 societies constitutes the substance of history.

Yes.  I see chaos, confusion, disorder, the evil of abortion, infanticide, parents killing their children, and vice versa, etc. etc.

People become evil when they depart from His holy will. 

The Church has opened the Vatican Archives to the public....time and time again.

The Vatican Archives are open. The beef is there. You are a big fan of Google...check it out to your heart's content.

Yes, I expect Catholic pols to toe the line, but way too many of them don't and that's downright scandalous both to Catholics and non-Catholics. After all, you noticed and rightly so. 

Oh ya. Known that for a long time. 

On this point, we totally agree.

"real Catholic"! Ha, I like that.

Smoothseas, welcome aboard!!! I hope you enjoy yourself as much as I have …  I would go one step further and say that anyone with a sense of logic and a working knowledge of history combined with science could not accept ANY religion as truly revealed by any God. As I explained, I don’t care that much about religions or the people who practice them … whatever floats your boat. What I do care about is the self-proclaimed superiority of the Roman Catholic Church. It was never my intention to slam ‘religion’ in general. The face that I do not believe in God shouldn’t matter to anyone besides me but that of course is not the reality I have faced here on JU.

In all honesty Lula, I do not make it a habit of following things I don’t believe in but I do keep up some. Genesis is interesting reading but I have to call your attention the laws of physics or is it your contention that these laws were not in existence from time ‘Zero’ you know, somewhere between 4.5 billion years to 7,000 years ago depending on one’s perspective. You already know I don’t put any stock in things that cannot be proved. Do you know how impossible it is to achieve even a potential gene pool from 50, 000 individuals let alone one, just a thought???

Anyway, you are starting to quote God again when in reality you are just reciting ‘scripture’ (hearsay).  Your problem is that you do not have any confidence in the human being, period. If it is your opinion that we as a whole are incapable of anything besides bestiality and infanticide and other such anarchy … what makes you think you are any different from the rest of us as to making rational decisions?  Are you not of the same gene pool as the rest of us incapable heathens?

Are you honestly naïve enough to think the Vatican (The Roman Catholic Church) has ever made all or even most of its archives available to the public, I think not. Are you simple enough to believe that your Church is incapable of errors considering that you told me that The Church was not responsible for their bad apples. Is it not logical to understand that if bad apples exist, they must exist at the top of the chain too? We are talking about people are we not? Thanks anyway but I do not have a soul to save … I have a heart and that is more than enough for me … a mere mortal.

I simply find it interesting watching how far some people will go to prove their moral superiority.

Not much different from a bunch of other religious sects that have self proclaimed prophets who have "received the true word of god". 

JU is quite funny in that respect. A lot of what I see here in regards to religion and politics are people who resort to name calling or who throw out the race or religion card when dealing with subjects or queries for which they have no valid response.

What you don't understand Lulu is that it is not an either or situation. Subordinating yourself to your belief in the divine order might be the only way you can avoid becoming the center of your universe, but it certainly doesn't work that way for everyone. Some people don't need to believe in a god to realize that they are not the center of the universe or to realize the consequences that satisfying certain desires might have

Your perception of reality is very much biased Lulu. You live in a secular society, in a country whose constitution specifically mandates what many call a separation of church and state. You then look at instances of countries that do not have this separation so impose "religious law" on the people. So lets take a look at Vatican Law to see what a Catholic State might look like.

Art. 1 §1 declares that “The Supreme Pontiff, Sovereign of Vatican City State, has the fullness of legislative, executive and judicial powers

Not looking good from the start. Personally I choose to live in a republic, not a monarchy or dictatorship.

From there I can think of quite a few laws the pope might enact that would take away many of the rights I currently have.

So no I do not get your your drift because you don't even understand what your drift entails.

SMOOTHSEAS,

Catholicism is man-made as well, in particular the Institution of the Catholic Church. Although I think all religions are man made for the sake of debate I will assume the teachings of Christ are the words of God. The Scriptures (Word of God) are wide open for interpretation. That is obvious as soon as one opens any version of the Bible. My interpretation is man made, Martin Luther's is man made, yours is man made and The Pope's is man made. The Roman Catholic church's self-proclaimed authority is nowhere written in the scriptures. It is a man made interpretation. And I only call it an interpretation for the sake of debate for in reality I personally think it is a manipulation not simply interpretation. Do you know the timeline for that interpretation? The reason for that interpretation? Or is it just another leap of faith you take?

Lula, I appreciate all your hard work, but all you are doing is alluding to Biblical Scripture and then telling me that it must be so??? Personally, I think the NT has more of a plagiaristic relationship to the OT … not a complimentary one. Throwaway religions, you guys are too much. I believe even semiliterate people are more than capable of deciding for themselves what God’s own words mean, sort of like … He … were actually doing the talking instead of you guys doing it for Him. If there is a one God as you prescribe and most Christians adore the same one God … there can only be one problem here and you already know it is true. From the very beginning after hundreds of years of revisions of course, the Church announced to the world that what the world wants doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference. And you guys have been at war ever since, go figure.